| Response ID | 10 |
| Date last action | 2022-11-15 17:50:33 |
| Your name (and body) This information, together with your answers, will be public and possibly indexed by search engines. This is the only mandatory question in the survey. | Дилян (AEGEE-Frankfurt am Main) |
| Do you see necessity for convoking the Extraordinary Agora 2022? The procedures to propose to the Agora to downgrade or delete antannae were not followed, therefore the Autumn Agora 2022 has not voted on downgrading/deleting antennae. The Extraordinary Agora 2022 is convoked to catch up with this voting. In case there is no extraordinary Agora, the voting will be done during Spring Agora 2023. Before convoking an extraordinary Agora in the ideal case there shall be some consultations. A form of consultations would have been a motion during the last ordinary Agora, on whether to convoke an extraordinary Agora. Rumours say that the Juridical Commission declared a motion on this topic as inadmissible. Hence the name “The Inadmissible Survey”. | No |
| Shall www.aegee.org stop collecting cookies? AEGEE is not a data-driven organization. There is probably nobody available to analyze the information collected using cookies at www.aegee.org, and then take actions. Without cookies loaded at www.aegee.org AEGEE will be more privacy oriented. | Yes |
| Do you think there shall have been a pre-Agora voting on the proposals, submitted to the Juridical Commission 30 days before the start of Extraordinary Agora 2022? One of the proposals changes the CIA to forbid voting on antennae degradation/deletion during an Extraordinary Agora. The reason to convoke extraordinary Agora 2022 is to vote on antennae degradation/deletion, as it was skipped during the Autumn Agora 2022. If that proposal was approved during a pre-Agora voting, the reason the convoke Extraordinary Agora 2022 would be void. | Yes |
| Shall the eligibility requirement for delegates and envoys, according to which delegates must have joined AEGEE half a year ago, be removed? In Working Format of the Agora, Article 5.2Current text: “In order to get elected, the delegates and envoys of Locals must be on the members list the respective Local submitted before the preceding Agora, with the exception of members who have been announced as members of the local board at least three months before the start of the Agora.”Proposed text: deletion of the above requirementRationale: Each AEGEE Antenna can decide best, based on its current situation, who to send to the Agora. When new members with time and money can attend the Agora, while older members without time or money cannot attend the Agora, the antenna should be entitled to make rational decision about who to send to the Agora. There is no need to restrict antennae who to send to the Agora, and then having lengthy discussions about granting exceptions, when the to-be-deleted requirement is not met. Moreover, the current text does not say that AEGEE-Europe may interfere or overrule decisions of an antennae who to send to the agora. Nevertheless such interferences are done in order to demonstrate who has the power.While it is reasonable to send as delegates members who know AEGEE for a longer time, this is just advice. The general assembly of an antenna can decide that a new member is a better choice as delegate than an older member, based on personal impressions. Also in this case it is not reasonable to prohibit antennae to select the person, who they think is best as delegate. In other words, the current regulation can cause problems, does not solve problems and there is no need for this restriction. This rule does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | Yes |
| Shall Antennae be downgraded or deleted only once a year? In Antennae Criteria, Article 8Current text: The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.Proposed text: «Antenna or Contact Antenna can be downgraded or deleted only during an ordinary Agora and only if on the previous ordinary Agora there was no voting on deletion or downgrading. The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.If the proposal is approved, it is enacted from the moment of its approval, not the day after the Agora ends. (Cf. Article 19 Working Format of the Agora)»Rationale: The current practice is to downgrade/delete antennae twice a year. It is however sufficient to downgrade or delete antennae once a year, as the result will be the same, as when the operation is performed twice a year. This text reduces the frequency of applying the procedure. Performing twice a year the procedure takes twice as much time, before and during the Agora. With the proposed simplification less time will be spent on formalities.WF Agora Article 19 states that Agora decisions come into force the day after the Agora ends, unless stated otherwise explicitly in the decision voted upon. The current proposal states explicitly that antennae deletion/degradation can be done only during an ordinary Agora. By approving the current proposal, the reason to convoke the Extraordinary Agora 2022 will be void. Moreover the current proposal overrules the JC-decision that not having a voting on antenna degradation/deletion/downgrading justifies a necessity, an important reason to convoke an Agora. All in all, the proposal reduces formalities applied in AEGEE, without having side effects. | Yes |
| Shall the CD publish yearly the amount of natural members AEGEE has? The lack of related text in the CIA coincides with the fact, that the last time the number of members was published was in 2013 (13 000 members), | Yes |
| Shall during the Agora/EPM/SPM application process applicants be asked, whether they shall be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L? Working format of the Agora, Article 2Add new bullet: During the application procedure for Agora, EPM, Strategic Planning Meeting applicants must be offered a checkbox if they want to be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L@lists.aegee.org, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L.Rationale: https://mail.aegee.org/stats.html#subscribers shows the amount of new and deleted subscribers to the mentioned mailing list per year. Before 2019 the proposed above system was applied in practice. As can be seen from the statistics, this ensured that 500+ current members joined the major AEGEE mailing lists each year, compared to 100 now. Once subscribed, they received Open Calls, News, could discuss with other new members ideas on the development of AEGEE, but also raise concerns on a direction AEGEE has taken.Since the new members on the mailing lists are now much less, compared to the past, sending Open Calls, News or having discussions, has also much smaller impact.The possibility to subscribe by visiting https://lists.aegee.org is present, but is not as effective as integrating the subscription with the application system for the Agora/EPM.By utilizing again the previously used, existing software for the Agora application management the impact on sending Open Calls or news over ANNOUNCE-L will be increased. The mentioned mailing lists do not sell personal data. | Yes |
| Shall the number of visitors of the Agora per antenna depend only on the capacity of the organizers and the amount of members of the antenna? Working format of the Agora, Article 7Current text: The number of visitors per body depends on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local. The selection of the visitors shall be made by the Chairperson taking into account the ranking and comment provided by the board of the respective AEGEE localProposed text: The number of visitors per body depends only on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local and on the number of members of the body. The formula for calculating the number of visitors must be announced before the application process starts. Distributing the provided places for visitors among its members is up to the antennae.Rationale: Currently, even if all motivational texts are written very well, some visitors are not accepted, if there is not enough capacity. This is the same situation and result, when all applications contain no motivational text. The primary difference is, that in the latter case less time is spent for the application procedure.Currently, even if the Agora has practically unlimited capacity, applicants as visitors have to spend time on writing some motivational text. If the visitors want to visit the Agora primary because of parties, and write this in their motivation, there will likely be sanctions for stating in the motivational text the truth. So applicants write in the motivational text not the truth, what they think the reason for applying is, but rather text for which they will not be sanctioned. AEGEE has really no need to sanction members for stating what they think. Moreover, sanctioning members, for stating what they think, makes it impossible to evaluate objectively the reasons why members go to a particular Agora.Reiterating the case where an Agora has practically unlimited capacity, requiring from applicants to write motivational text is the same as stating that the time of applicants is nothing worth and therefore this time can be stolen with formalities.Currently, it is not predictable at the time an application is submitted, if the applicant will be accepted as a visitor, or will be rejected. With the proposed text this uncertainty remains, but the time for submitting an application is reduced and the selection procedure will be more transparent.Currently, the “board comment” is sometimes self-evaluation, which self-evaluation does not serve a legitimate purpose.The proposed text intentionally leaves open how to calculate or relate the number of members of non antennae, like Working Groups. It also does not say how to weight the size of the body to the visitors. One possibility is to grant each antenna constantly at least 3 places as visitors, and theremaining places are based on the number of members the antenna has. Or even the delegates can be considered in the calculation, leaving extra small antennae with at least three places (for the delegates) and no visitors. An antenna having twice as many members as another antenna could get granted twice as much visitors by the formula, or as another example - 1.3 times more visitors.The proposed text also leaves open whether the number of members per antenna during the previous Agora shall be taken into account, or the number of members based on the last payment done. The main idea of this change is to publish the selection algorithm before the application process starts.The last sentence of the proposed text suggests that Antennae shall order the visitors during the “Board Approval”. Once the formula is applied and it is clear how many visitors from an antenna are entitled to attend the Agora/EPM, the visitors are accepted in that order. This is a change to the current system, as visitors are selected by members, knowing them personally. If a selected visitor cancels, the next visitor from that antenna from the list can attend. In case of cancellation, when no more visitors from that antennae have applied before the deadline, the formula is applied againand the free place goes to another body. Obviously, if an antenna has fewer applicants than places it would take, all applicants from the antenna are accepted, and the “unused” places are in the pool of free places that are spread among the other antennae based on the formula. Likewise, if there are more places at the Agora thanapplicants, all applicants are accepted.The formula is not specified here, as it is better to evaluate how things develop over time. If the direction is considered in the future as bad, the text for the formula can be specified by a general assembly in the future.The delegates at the current Agora have not spent time on writing motivational letters, but on the next Agorae they might have to spend time on this. With the current proposal this time will be saved.This proposal does save time for the Agora/EPM application process to all applicants as visitors and at the same time provides a fair, transparent mechanism on how places of visitors are distributed. It abolishes the need to lie on the real reason to attend the Agora.Last but not least, the Agora application software used until 2019 was able to calculate visitor places based on such formula. | Yes |
| Shall the submission of names of members be removed from the Antennae Criteria? Current text: Antenna CriteriaArticle 3 Becoming a Contact AntennaCurrent text: Send a members list having at least five members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna. The members list has to be sent to the Comité Directeur for approval;Article 5 Becoming an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a members list having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Article 6 Remaining an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a list of current members before every Agora having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Proposal: remove the above text on the three placesRationale:The purpose of the remaining antannae criteria is to validate that the local organization is alive, does collaborate to some extent with other parts of the AEGEE network, or regulate tax payments.The criterion to submit a list of names of members does not fulfill any of the mentioned purposes, it does end in itself. “End in itself” means something that one does because one wants to and not because it will help achieve or accomplish something else (Merriam-Webster). These lists with members are not needed for the operations of AEGEE.Each antannae criterion is meant to be independent of each other, thus failing to fulfill one criterion does not imply that other criteria are also not fulfilled. Nevertheless concerning the fulfillment of the List of members criterion it was bound in the past as a requirement to fulfill other criteria. E.g. an email over BOARINF-L from 19 July 2018 contains:> The Comité Directeur and the Juridical Commission will be using the members list:> - To calculate the membership fees of locals;The email on ANNOUNCE-L from 25 August 2015 provides this explanation:> If for some reason you will not submit the members lists, the following things will happen:> 1. If your local doesn’t submit the Members' list then a *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 2. If your local doesn't submit the Membership fee with the members' list, the *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 3. The Comité Directeur and the Chair team cannot cross-check it if the members applying for the Agora are (still) members -> it's impossible to accept delegates --> the local cannot take part in the Agora -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> 4. The Financial Director cannot know how much is your fee to pay to AEGEE-Europe --> you cannot pay fees -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> Result = Your local is not fulfilling 3 criteria --> you risk to be downgraded or deleted!There were more such messages in the past.Until recently the practice was not to downgrade an antenna, if it does not fulfill a single criterion, except tax obligations. An email from 10 October 2022 on ANNOUNCE-L suggests to downgrade Antennae just because it has not sent the list of members, even if there are no concerns with the other criteria.As can be seen, the criterion to send list of members was used in the past to justify that antennae are not able to calculate the amount of fees they have to pay, or CD and Chair cannot validate if the members, approved by the local boards, are (still) members. Antannae are however capable and competent to calculate the amount of fees they have to transfer to AEGEE-Europe; CD and chair do not have the task to validate, if members of the Agora, approved by local boards, are (still) members of an antenna.A new criterion can be introduced in the future, stating that the number of members must be submitted. I have no concerns against submitting the number of members, without their names.The existing to-be-deleted antennae criterion does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | Yes |
| Response ID | 28 |
| Date last action | 2022-11-15 20:37:44 |
| Your name (and body) This information, together with your answers, will be public and possibly indexed by search engines. This is the only mandatory question in the survey. | Juan Carlos (AEGEE-Groningen) |
| Do you see necessity for convoking the Extraordinary Agora 2022? The procedures to propose to the Agora to downgrade or delete antannae were not followed, therefore the Autumn Agora 2022 has not voted on downgrading/deleting antennae. The Extraordinary Agora 2022 is convoked to catch up with this voting. In case there is no extraordinary Agora, the voting will be done during Spring Agora 2023. Before convoking an extraordinary Agora in the ideal case there shall be some consultations. A form of consultations would have been a motion during the last ordinary Agora, on whether to convoke an extraordinary Agora. Rumours say that the Juridical Commission declared a motion on this topic as inadmissible. Hence the name “The Inadmissible Survey”. | N/A |
| Shall www.aegee.org stop collecting cookies? AEGEE is not a data-driven organization. There is probably nobody available to analyze the information collected using cookies at www.aegee.org, and then take actions. Without cookies loaded at www.aegee.org AEGEE will be more privacy oriented. | N/A |
| Do you think there shall have been a pre-Agora voting on the proposals, submitted to the Juridical Commission 30 days before the start of Extraordinary Agora 2022? One of the proposals changes the CIA to forbid voting on antennae degradation/deletion during an Extraordinary Agora. The reason to convoke extraordinary Agora 2022 is to vote on antennae degradation/deletion, as it was skipped during the Autumn Agora 2022. If that proposal was approved during a pre-Agora voting, the reason the convoke Extraordinary Agora 2022 would be void. | No |
| Shall the eligibility requirement for delegates and envoys, according to which delegates must have joined AEGEE half a year ago, be removed? In Working Format of the Agora, Article 5.2Current text: “In order to get elected, the delegates and envoys of Locals must be on the members list the respective Local submitted before the preceding Agora, with the exception of members who have been announced as members of the local board at least three months before the start of the Agora.”Proposed text: deletion of the above requirementRationale: Each AEGEE Antenna can decide best, based on its current situation, who to send to the Agora. When new members with time and money can attend the Agora, while older members without time or money cannot attend the Agora, the antenna should be entitled to make rational decision about who to send to the Agora. There is no need to restrict antennae who to send to the Agora, and then having lengthy discussions about granting exceptions, when the to-be-deleted requirement is not met. Moreover, the current text does not say that AEGEE-Europe may interfere or overrule decisions of an antennae who to send to the agora. Nevertheless such interferences are done in order to demonstrate who has the power.While it is reasonable to send as delegates members who know AEGEE for a longer time, this is just advice. The general assembly of an antenna can decide that a new member is a better choice as delegate than an older member, based on personal impressions. Also in this case it is not reasonable to prohibit antennae to select the person, who they think is best as delegate. In other words, the current regulation can cause problems, does not solve problems and there is no need for this restriction. This rule does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | No |
| Shall Antennae be downgraded or deleted only once a year? In Antennae Criteria, Article 8Current text: The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.Proposed text: «Antenna or Contact Antenna can be downgraded or deleted only during an ordinary Agora and only if on the previous ordinary Agora there was no voting on deletion or downgrading. The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.If the proposal is approved, it is enacted from the moment of its approval, not the day after the Agora ends. (Cf. Article 19 Working Format of the Agora)»Rationale: The current practice is to downgrade/delete antennae twice a year. It is however sufficient to downgrade or delete antennae once a year, as the result will be the same, as when the operation is performed twice a year. This text reduces the frequency of applying the procedure. Performing twice a year the procedure takes twice as much time, before and during the Agora. With the proposed simplification less time will be spent on formalities.WF Agora Article 19 states that Agora decisions come into force the day after the Agora ends, unless stated otherwise explicitly in the decision voted upon. The current proposal states explicitly that antennae deletion/degradation can be done only during an ordinary Agora. By approving the current proposal, the reason to convoke the Extraordinary Agora 2022 will be void. Moreover the current proposal overrules the JC-decision that not having a voting on antenna degradation/deletion/downgrading justifies a necessity, an important reason to convoke an Agora. All in all, the proposal reduces formalities applied in AEGEE, without having side effects. | N/A |
| Shall the CD publish yearly the amount of natural members AEGEE has? The lack of related text in the CIA coincides with the fact, that the last time the number of members was published was in 2013 (13 000 members), | Yes |
| Shall during the Agora/EPM/SPM application process applicants be asked, whether they shall be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L? Working format of the Agora, Article 2Add new bullet: During the application procedure for Agora, EPM, Strategic Planning Meeting applicants must be offered a checkbox if they want to be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L@lists.aegee.org, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L.Rationale: https://mail.aegee.org/stats.html#subscribers shows the amount of new and deleted subscribers to the mentioned mailing list per year. Before 2019 the proposed above system was applied in practice. As can be seen from the statistics, this ensured that 500+ current members joined the major AEGEE mailing lists each year, compared to 100 now. Once subscribed, they received Open Calls, News, could discuss with other new members ideas on the development of AEGEE, but also raise concerns on a direction AEGEE has taken.Since the new members on the mailing lists are now much less, compared to the past, sending Open Calls, News or having discussions, has also much smaller impact.The possibility to subscribe by visiting https://lists.aegee.org is present, but is not as effective as integrating the subscription with the application system for the Agora/EPM.By utilizing again the previously used, existing software for the Agora application management the impact on sending Open Calls or news over ANNOUNCE-L will be increased. The mentioned mailing lists do not sell personal data. | Yes |
| Shall the number of visitors of the Agora per antenna depend only on the capacity of the organizers and the amount of members of the antenna? Working format of the Agora, Article 7Current text: The number of visitors per body depends on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local. The selection of the visitors shall be made by the Chairperson taking into account the ranking and comment provided by the board of the respective AEGEE localProposed text: The number of visitors per body depends only on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local and on the number of members of the body. The formula for calculating the number of visitors must be announced before the application process starts. Distributing the provided places for visitors among its members is up to the antennae.Rationale: Currently, even if all motivational texts are written very well, some visitors are not accepted, if there is not enough capacity. This is the same situation and result, when all applications contain no motivational text. The primary difference is, that in the latter case less time is spent for the application procedure.Currently, even if the Agora has practically unlimited capacity, applicants as visitors have to spend time on writing some motivational text. If the visitors want to visit the Agora primary because of parties, and write this in their motivation, there will likely be sanctions for stating in the motivational text the truth. So applicants write in the motivational text not the truth, what they think the reason for applying is, but rather text for which they will not be sanctioned. AEGEE has really no need to sanction members for stating what they think. Moreover, sanctioning members, for stating what they think, makes it impossible to evaluate objectively the reasons why members go to a particular Agora.Reiterating the case where an Agora has practically unlimited capacity, requiring from applicants to write motivational text is the same as stating that the time of applicants is nothing worth and therefore this time can be stolen with formalities.Currently, it is not predictable at the time an application is submitted, if the applicant will be accepted as a visitor, or will be rejected. With the proposed text this uncertainty remains, but the time for submitting an application is reduced and the selection procedure will be more transparent.Currently, the “board comment” is sometimes self-evaluation, which self-evaluation does not serve a legitimate purpose.The proposed text intentionally leaves open how to calculate or relate the number of members of non antennae, like Working Groups. It also does not say how to weight the size of the body to the visitors. One possibility is to grant each antenna constantly at least 3 places as visitors, and theremaining places are based on the number of members the antenna has. Or even the delegates can be considered in the calculation, leaving extra small antennae with at least three places (for the delegates) and no visitors. An antenna having twice as many members as another antenna could get granted twice as much visitors by the formula, or as another example - 1.3 times more visitors.The proposed text also leaves open whether the number of members per antenna during the previous Agora shall be taken into account, or the number of members based on the last payment done. The main idea of this change is to publish the selection algorithm before the application process starts.The last sentence of the proposed text suggests that Antennae shall order the visitors during the “Board Approval”. Once the formula is applied and it is clear how many visitors from an antenna are entitled to attend the Agora/EPM, the visitors are accepted in that order. This is a change to the current system, as visitors are selected by members, knowing them personally. If a selected visitor cancels, the next visitor from that antenna from the list can attend. In case of cancellation, when no more visitors from that antennae have applied before the deadline, the formula is applied againand the free place goes to another body. Obviously, if an antenna has fewer applicants than places it would take, all applicants from the antenna are accepted, and the “unused” places are in the pool of free places that are spread among the other antennae based on the formula. Likewise, if there are more places at the Agora thanapplicants, all applicants are accepted.The formula is not specified here, as it is better to evaluate how things develop over time. If the direction is considered in the future as bad, the text for the formula can be specified by a general assembly in the future.The delegates at the current Agora have not spent time on writing motivational letters, but on the next Agorae they might have to spend time on this. With the current proposal this time will be saved.This proposal does save time for the Agora/EPM application process to all applicants as visitors and at the same time provides a fair, transparent mechanism on how places of visitors are distributed. It abolishes the need to lie on the real reason to attend the Agora.Last but not least, the Agora application software used until 2019 was able to calculate visitor places based on such formula. | Yes |
| Shall the submission of names of members be removed from the Antennae Criteria? Current text: Antenna CriteriaArticle 3 Becoming a Contact AntennaCurrent text: Send a members list having at least five members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna. The members list has to be sent to the Comité Directeur for approval;Article 5 Becoming an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a members list having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Article 6 Remaining an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a list of current members before every Agora having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Proposal: remove the above text on the three placesRationale:The purpose of the remaining antannae criteria is to validate that the local organization is alive, does collaborate to some extent with other parts of the AEGEE network, or regulate tax payments.The criterion to submit a list of names of members does not fulfill any of the mentioned purposes, it does end in itself. “End in itself” means something that one does because one wants to and not because it will help achieve or accomplish something else (Merriam-Webster). These lists with members are not needed for the operations of AEGEE.Each antannae criterion is meant to be independent of each other, thus failing to fulfill one criterion does not imply that other criteria are also not fulfilled. Nevertheless concerning the fulfillment of the List of members criterion it was bound in the past as a requirement to fulfill other criteria. E.g. an email over BOARINF-L from 19 July 2018 contains:> The Comité Directeur and the Juridical Commission will be using the members list:> - To calculate the membership fees of locals;The email on ANNOUNCE-L from 25 August 2015 provides this explanation:> If for some reason you will not submit the members lists, the following things will happen:> 1. If your local doesn’t submit the Members' list then a *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 2. If your local doesn't submit the Membership fee with the members' list, the *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 3. The Comité Directeur and the Chair team cannot cross-check it if the members applying for the Agora are (still) members -> it's impossible to accept delegates --> the local cannot take part in the Agora -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> 4. The Financial Director cannot know how much is your fee to pay to AEGEE-Europe --> you cannot pay fees -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> Result = Your local is not fulfilling 3 criteria --> you risk to be downgraded or deleted!There were more such messages in the past.Until recently the practice was not to downgrade an antenna, if it does not fulfill a single criterion, except tax obligations. An email from 10 October 2022 on ANNOUNCE-L suggests to downgrade Antennae just because it has not sent the list of members, even if there are no concerns with the other criteria.As can be seen, the criterion to send list of members was used in the past to justify that antennae are not able to calculate the amount of fees they have to pay, or CD and Chair cannot validate if the members, approved by the local boards, are (still) members. Antannae are however capable and competent to calculate the amount of fees they have to transfer to AEGEE-Europe; CD and chair do not have the task to validate, if members of the Agora, approved by local boards, are (still) members of an antenna.A new criterion can be introduced in the future, stating that the number of members must be submitted. I have no concerns against submitting the number of members, without their names.The existing to-be-deleted antennae criterion does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | N/A |
| Comments You can write anything here. | Thank you. Hope to see some of the topics raised in a proposal at the Agora. Maybe I could help if needed. |
| Response ID | 29 |
| Date last action | 2022-11-15 20:48:59 |
| Your name (and body) This information, together with your answers, will be public and possibly indexed by search engines. This is the only mandatory question in the survey. | Gunnar Erth |
| Do you see necessity for convoking the Extraordinary Agora 2022? The procedures to propose to the Agora to downgrade or delete antannae were not followed, therefore the Autumn Agora 2022 has not voted on downgrading/deleting antennae. The Extraordinary Agora 2022 is convoked to catch up with this voting. In case there is no extraordinary Agora, the voting will be done during Spring Agora 2023. Before convoking an extraordinary Agora in the ideal case there shall be some consultations. A form of consultations would have been a motion during the last ordinary Agora, on whether to convoke an extraordinary Agora. Rumours say that the Juridical Commission declared a motion on this topic as inadmissible. Hence the name “The Inadmissible Survey”. | No |
| Shall www.aegee.org stop collecting cookies? AEGEE is not a data-driven organization. There is probably nobody available to analyze the information collected using cookies at www.aegee.org, and then take actions. Without cookies loaded at www.aegee.org AEGEE will be more privacy oriented. | No |
| Do you think there shall have been a pre-Agora voting on the proposals, submitted to the Juridical Commission 30 days before the start of Extraordinary Agora 2022? One of the proposals changes the CIA to forbid voting on antennae degradation/deletion during an Extraordinary Agora. The reason to convoke extraordinary Agora 2022 is to vote on antennae degradation/deletion, as it was skipped during the Autumn Agora 2022. If that proposal was approved during a pre-Agora voting, the reason the convoke Extraordinary Agora 2022 would be void. | No |
| Shall the eligibility requirement for delegates and envoys, according to which delegates must have joined AEGEE half a year ago, be removed? In Working Format of the Agora, Article 5.2Current text: “In order to get elected, the delegates and envoys of Locals must be on the members list the respective Local submitted before the preceding Agora, with the exception of members who have been announced as members of the local board at least three months before the start of the Agora.”Proposed text: deletion of the above requirementRationale: Each AEGEE Antenna can decide best, based on its current situation, who to send to the Agora. When new members with time and money can attend the Agora, while older members without time or money cannot attend the Agora, the antenna should be entitled to make rational decision about who to send to the Agora. There is no need to restrict antennae who to send to the Agora, and then having lengthy discussions about granting exceptions, when the to-be-deleted requirement is not met. Moreover, the current text does not say that AEGEE-Europe may interfere or overrule decisions of an antennae who to send to the agora. Nevertheless such interferences are done in order to demonstrate who has the power.While it is reasonable to send as delegates members who know AEGEE for a longer time, this is just advice. The general assembly of an antenna can decide that a new member is a better choice as delegate than an older member, based on personal impressions. Also in this case it is not reasonable to prohibit antennae to select the person, who they think is best as delegate. In other words, the current regulation can cause problems, does not solve problems and there is no need for this restriction. This rule does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | Yes |
| Shall Antennae be downgraded or deleted only once a year? In Antennae Criteria, Article 8Current text: The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.Proposed text: «Antenna or Contact Antenna can be downgraded or deleted only during an ordinary Agora and only if on the previous ordinary Agora there was no voting on deletion or downgrading. The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.If the proposal is approved, it is enacted from the moment of its approval, not the day after the Agora ends. (Cf. Article 19 Working Format of the Agora)»Rationale: The current practice is to downgrade/delete antennae twice a year. It is however sufficient to downgrade or delete antennae once a year, as the result will be the same, as when the operation is performed twice a year. This text reduces the frequency of applying the procedure. Performing twice a year the procedure takes twice as much time, before and during the Agora. With the proposed simplification less time will be spent on formalities.WF Agora Article 19 states that Agora decisions come into force the day after the Agora ends, unless stated otherwise explicitly in the decision voted upon. The current proposal states explicitly that antennae deletion/degradation can be done only during an ordinary Agora. By approving the current proposal, the reason to convoke the Extraordinary Agora 2022 will be void. Moreover the current proposal overrules the JC-decision that not having a voting on antenna degradation/deletion/downgrading justifies a necessity, an important reason to convoke an Agora. All in all, the proposal reduces formalities applied in AEGEE, without having side effects. | Yes |
| Shall the CD publish yearly the amount of natural members AEGEE has? The lack of related text in the CIA coincides with the fact, that the last time the number of members was published was in 2013 (13 000 members), | Yes |
| Shall during the Agora/EPM/SPM application process applicants be asked, whether they shall be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L? Working format of the Agora, Article 2Add new bullet: During the application procedure for Agora, EPM, Strategic Planning Meeting applicants must be offered a checkbox if they want to be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L@lists.aegee.org, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L.Rationale: https://mail.aegee.org/stats.html#subscribers shows the amount of new and deleted subscribers to the mentioned mailing list per year. Before 2019 the proposed above system was applied in practice. As can be seen from the statistics, this ensured that 500+ current members joined the major AEGEE mailing lists each year, compared to 100 now. Once subscribed, they received Open Calls, News, could discuss with other new members ideas on the development of AEGEE, but also raise concerns on a direction AEGEE has taken.Since the new members on the mailing lists are now much less, compared to the past, sending Open Calls, News or having discussions, has also much smaller impact.The possibility to subscribe by visiting https://lists.aegee.org is present, but is not as effective as integrating the subscription with the application system for the Agora/EPM.By utilizing again the previously used, existing software for the Agora application management the impact on sending Open Calls or news over ANNOUNCE-L will be increased. The mentioned mailing lists do not sell personal data. | Yes |
| Shall the number of visitors of the Agora per antenna depend only on the capacity of the organizers and the amount of members of the antenna? Working format of the Agora, Article 7Current text: The number of visitors per body depends on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local. The selection of the visitors shall be made by the Chairperson taking into account the ranking and comment provided by the board of the respective AEGEE localProposed text: The number of visitors per body depends only on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local and on the number of members of the body. The formula for calculating the number of visitors must be announced before the application process starts. Distributing the provided places for visitors among its members is up to the antennae.Rationale: Currently, even if all motivational texts are written very well, some visitors are not accepted, if there is not enough capacity. This is the same situation and result, when all applications contain no motivational text. The primary difference is, that in the latter case less time is spent for the application procedure.Currently, even if the Agora has practically unlimited capacity, applicants as visitors have to spend time on writing some motivational text. If the visitors want to visit the Agora primary because of parties, and write this in their motivation, there will likely be sanctions for stating in the motivational text the truth. So applicants write in the motivational text not the truth, what they think the reason for applying is, but rather text for which they will not be sanctioned. AEGEE has really no need to sanction members for stating what they think. Moreover, sanctioning members, for stating what they think, makes it impossible to evaluate objectively the reasons why members go to a particular Agora.Reiterating the case where an Agora has practically unlimited capacity, requiring from applicants to write motivational text is the same as stating that the time of applicants is nothing worth and therefore this time can be stolen with formalities.Currently, it is not predictable at the time an application is submitted, if the applicant will be accepted as a visitor, or will be rejected. With the proposed text this uncertainty remains, but the time for submitting an application is reduced and the selection procedure will be more transparent.Currently, the “board comment” is sometimes self-evaluation, which self-evaluation does not serve a legitimate purpose.The proposed text intentionally leaves open how to calculate or relate the number of members of non antennae, like Working Groups. It also does not say how to weight the size of the body to the visitors. One possibility is to grant each antenna constantly at least 3 places as visitors, and theremaining places are based on the number of members the antenna has. Or even the delegates can be considered in the calculation, leaving extra small antennae with at least three places (for the delegates) and no visitors. An antenna having twice as many members as another antenna could get granted twice as much visitors by the formula, or as another example - 1.3 times more visitors.The proposed text also leaves open whether the number of members per antenna during the previous Agora shall be taken into account, or the number of members based on the last payment done. The main idea of this change is to publish the selection algorithm before the application process starts.The last sentence of the proposed text suggests that Antennae shall order the visitors during the “Board Approval”. Once the formula is applied and it is clear how many visitors from an antenna are entitled to attend the Agora/EPM, the visitors are accepted in that order. This is a change to the current system, as visitors are selected by members, knowing them personally. If a selected visitor cancels, the next visitor from that antenna from the list can attend. In case of cancellation, when no more visitors from that antennae have applied before the deadline, the formula is applied againand the free place goes to another body. Obviously, if an antenna has fewer applicants than places it would take, all applicants from the antenna are accepted, and the “unused” places are in the pool of free places that are spread among the other antennae based on the formula. Likewise, if there are more places at the Agora thanapplicants, all applicants are accepted.The formula is not specified here, as it is better to evaluate how things develop over time. If the direction is considered in the future as bad, the text for the formula can be specified by a general assembly in the future.The delegates at the current Agora have not spent time on writing motivational letters, but on the next Agorae they might have to spend time on this. With the current proposal this time will be saved.This proposal does save time for the Agora/EPM application process to all applicants as visitors and at the same time provides a fair, transparent mechanism on how places of visitors are distributed. It abolishes the need to lie on the real reason to attend the Agora.Last but not least, the Agora application software used until 2019 was able to calculate visitor places based on such formula. | Yes |
| Shall the submission of names of members be removed from the Antennae Criteria? Current text: Antenna CriteriaArticle 3 Becoming a Contact AntennaCurrent text: Send a members list having at least five members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna. The members list has to be sent to the Comité Directeur for approval;Article 5 Becoming an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a members list having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Article 6 Remaining an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a list of current members before every Agora having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Proposal: remove the above text on the three placesRationale:The purpose of the remaining antannae criteria is to validate that the local organization is alive, does collaborate to some extent with other parts of the AEGEE network, or regulate tax payments.The criterion to submit a list of names of members does not fulfill any of the mentioned purposes, it does end in itself. “End in itself” means something that one does because one wants to and not because it will help achieve or accomplish something else (Merriam-Webster). These lists with members are not needed for the operations of AEGEE.Each antannae criterion is meant to be independent of each other, thus failing to fulfill one criterion does not imply that other criteria are also not fulfilled. Nevertheless concerning the fulfillment of the List of members criterion it was bound in the past as a requirement to fulfill other criteria. E.g. an email over BOARINF-L from 19 July 2018 contains:> The Comité Directeur and the Juridical Commission will be using the members list:> - To calculate the membership fees of locals;The email on ANNOUNCE-L from 25 August 2015 provides this explanation:> If for some reason you will not submit the members lists, the following things will happen:> 1. If your local doesn’t submit the Members' list then a *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 2. If your local doesn't submit the Membership fee with the members' list, the *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 3. The Comité Directeur and the Chair team cannot cross-check it if the members applying for the Agora are (still) members -> it's impossible to accept delegates --> the local cannot take part in the Agora -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> 4. The Financial Director cannot know how much is your fee to pay to AEGEE-Europe --> you cannot pay fees -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> Result = Your local is not fulfilling 3 criteria --> you risk to be downgraded or deleted!There were more such messages in the past.Until recently the practice was not to downgrade an antenna, if it does not fulfill a single criterion, except tax obligations. An email from 10 October 2022 on ANNOUNCE-L suggests to downgrade Antennae just because it has not sent the list of members, even if there are no concerns with the other criteria.As can be seen, the criterion to send list of members was used in the past to justify that antennae are not able to calculate the amount of fees they have to pay, or CD and Chair cannot validate if the members, approved by the local boards, are (still) members. Antannae are however capable and competent to calculate the amount of fees they have to transfer to AEGEE-Europe; CD and chair do not have the task to validate, if members of the Agora, approved by local boards, are (still) members of an antenna.A new criterion can be introduced in the future, stating that the number of members must be submitted. I have no concerns against submitting the number of members, without their names.The existing to-be-deleted antennae criterion does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | Yes |
| Comments You can write anything here. | Nice idea! |
| Response ID | 31 |
| Date last action | 2022-11-16 00:54:26 |
| Your name (and body) This information, together with your answers, will be public and possibly indexed by search engines. This is the only mandatory question in the survey. | Gerth Eunnar |
| Do you see necessity for convoking the Extraordinary Agora 2022? The procedures to propose to the Agora to downgrade or delete antannae were not followed, therefore the Autumn Agora 2022 has not voted on downgrading/deleting antennae. The Extraordinary Agora 2022 is convoked to catch up with this voting. In case there is no extraordinary Agora, the voting will be done during Spring Agora 2023. Before convoking an extraordinary Agora in the ideal case there shall be some consultations. A form of consultations would have been a motion during the last ordinary Agora, on whether to convoke an extraordinary Agora. Rumours say that the Juridical Commission declared a motion on this topic as inadmissible. Hence the name “The Inadmissible Survey”. | No |
| Shall www.aegee.org stop collecting cookies? AEGEE is not a data-driven organization. There is probably nobody available to analyze the information collected using cookies at www.aegee.org, and then take actions. Without cookies loaded at www.aegee.org AEGEE will be more privacy oriented. | Yes |
| Do you think there shall have been a pre-Agora voting on the proposals, submitted to the Juridical Commission 30 days before the start of Extraordinary Agora 2022? One of the proposals changes the CIA to forbid voting on antennae degradation/deletion during an Extraordinary Agora. The reason to convoke extraordinary Agora 2022 is to vote on antennae degradation/deletion, as it was skipped during the Autumn Agora 2022. If that proposal was approved during a pre-Agora voting, the reason the convoke Extraordinary Agora 2022 would be void. | No |
| Shall the eligibility requirement for delegates and envoys, according to which delegates must have joined AEGEE half a year ago, be removed? In Working Format of the Agora, Article 5.2Current text: “In order to get elected, the delegates and envoys of Locals must be on the members list the respective Local submitted before the preceding Agora, with the exception of members who have been announced as members of the local board at least three months before the start of the Agora.”Proposed text: deletion of the above requirementRationale: Each AEGEE Antenna can decide best, based on its current situation, who to send to the Agora. When new members with time and money can attend the Agora, while older members without time or money cannot attend the Agora, the antenna should be entitled to make rational decision about who to send to the Agora. There is no need to restrict antennae who to send to the Agora, and then having lengthy discussions about granting exceptions, when the to-be-deleted requirement is not met. Moreover, the current text does not say that AEGEE-Europe may interfere or overrule decisions of an antennae who to send to the agora. Nevertheless such interferences are done in order to demonstrate who has the power.While it is reasonable to send as delegates members who know AEGEE for a longer time, this is just advice. The general assembly of an antenna can decide that a new member is a better choice as delegate than an older member, based on personal impressions. Also in this case it is not reasonable to prohibit antennae to select the person, who they think is best as delegate. In other words, the current regulation can cause problems, does not solve problems and there is no need for this restriction. This rule does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | Yes |
| Shall Antennae be downgraded or deleted only once a year? In Antennae Criteria, Article 8Current text: The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.Proposed text: «Antenna or Contact Antenna can be downgraded or deleted only during an ordinary Agora and only if on the previous ordinary Agora there was no voting on deletion or downgrading. The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.If the proposal is approved, it is enacted from the moment of its approval, not the day after the Agora ends. (Cf. Article 19 Working Format of the Agora)»Rationale: The current practice is to downgrade/delete antennae twice a year. It is however sufficient to downgrade or delete antennae once a year, as the result will be the same, as when the operation is performed twice a year. This text reduces the frequency of applying the procedure. Performing twice a year the procedure takes twice as much time, before and during the Agora. With the proposed simplification less time will be spent on formalities.WF Agora Article 19 states that Agora decisions come into force the day after the Agora ends, unless stated otherwise explicitly in the decision voted upon. The current proposal states explicitly that antennae deletion/degradation can be done only during an ordinary Agora. By approving the current proposal, the reason to convoke the Extraordinary Agora 2022 will be void. Moreover the current proposal overrules the JC-decision that not having a voting on antenna degradation/deletion/downgrading justifies a necessity, an important reason to convoke an Agora. All in all, the proposal reduces formalities applied in AEGEE, without having side effects. | Yes |
| Shall the CD publish yearly the amount of natural members AEGEE has? The lack of related text in the CIA coincides with the fact, that the last time the number of members was published was in 2013 (13 000 members), | Yes |
| Shall during the Agora/EPM/SPM application process applicants be asked, whether they shall be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L? Working format of the Agora, Article 2Add new bullet: During the application procedure for Agora, EPM, Strategic Planning Meeting applicants must be offered a checkbox if they want to be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L@lists.aegee.org, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L.Rationale: https://mail.aegee.org/stats.html#subscribers shows the amount of new and deleted subscribers to the mentioned mailing list per year. Before 2019 the proposed above system was applied in practice. As can be seen from the statistics, this ensured that 500+ current members joined the major AEGEE mailing lists each year, compared to 100 now. Once subscribed, they received Open Calls, News, could discuss with other new members ideas on the development of AEGEE, but also raise concerns on a direction AEGEE has taken.Since the new members on the mailing lists are now much less, compared to the past, sending Open Calls, News or having discussions, has also much smaller impact.The possibility to subscribe by visiting https://lists.aegee.org is present, but is not as effective as integrating the subscription with the application system for the Agora/EPM.By utilizing again the previously used, existing software for the Agora application management the impact on sending Open Calls or news over ANNOUNCE-L will be increased. The mentioned mailing lists do not sell personal data. | Yes |
| Shall the number of visitors of the Agora per antenna depend only on the capacity of the organizers and the amount of members of the antenna? Working format of the Agora, Article 7Current text: The number of visitors per body depends on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local. The selection of the visitors shall be made by the Chairperson taking into account the ranking and comment provided by the board of the respective AEGEE localProposed text: The number of visitors per body depends only on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local and on the number of members of the body. The formula for calculating the number of visitors must be announced before the application process starts. Distributing the provided places for visitors among its members is up to the antennae.Rationale: Currently, even if all motivational texts are written very well, some visitors are not accepted, if there is not enough capacity. This is the same situation and result, when all applications contain no motivational text. The primary difference is, that in the latter case less time is spent for the application procedure.Currently, even if the Agora has practically unlimited capacity, applicants as visitors have to spend time on writing some motivational text. If the visitors want to visit the Agora primary because of parties, and write this in their motivation, there will likely be sanctions for stating in the motivational text the truth. So applicants write in the motivational text not the truth, what they think the reason for applying is, but rather text for which they will not be sanctioned. AEGEE has really no need to sanction members for stating what they think. Moreover, sanctioning members, for stating what they think, makes it impossible to evaluate objectively the reasons why members go to a particular Agora.Reiterating the case where an Agora has practically unlimited capacity, requiring from applicants to write motivational text is the same as stating that the time of applicants is nothing worth and therefore this time can be stolen with formalities.Currently, it is not predictable at the time an application is submitted, if the applicant will be accepted as a visitor, or will be rejected. With the proposed text this uncertainty remains, but the time for submitting an application is reduced and the selection procedure will be more transparent.Currently, the “board comment” is sometimes self-evaluation, which self-evaluation does not serve a legitimate purpose.The proposed text intentionally leaves open how to calculate or relate the number of members of non antennae, like Working Groups. It also does not say how to weight the size of the body to the visitors. One possibility is to grant each antenna constantly at least 3 places as visitors, and theremaining places are based on the number of members the antenna has. Or even the delegates can be considered in the calculation, leaving extra small antennae with at least three places (for the delegates) and no visitors. An antenna having twice as many members as another antenna could get granted twice as much visitors by the formula, or as another example - 1.3 times more visitors.The proposed text also leaves open whether the number of members per antenna during the previous Agora shall be taken into account, or the number of members based on the last payment done. The main idea of this change is to publish the selection algorithm before the application process starts.The last sentence of the proposed text suggests that Antennae shall order the visitors during the “Board Approval”. Once the formula is applied and it is clear how many visitors from an antenna are entitled to attend the Agora/EPM, the visitors are accepted in that order. This is a change to the current system, as visitors are selected by members, knowing them personally. If a selected visitor cancels, the next visitor from that antenna from the list can attend. In case of cancellation, when no more visitors from that antennae have applied before the deadline, the formula is applied againand the free place goes to another body. Obviously, if an antenna has fewer applicants than places it would take, all applicants from the antenna are accepted, and the “unused” places are in the pool of free places that are spread among the other antennae based on the formula. Likewise, if there are more places at the Agora thanapplicants, all applicants are accepted.The formula is not specified here, as it is better to evaluate how things develop over time. If the direction is considered in the future as bad, the text for the formula can be specified by a general assembly in the future.The delegates at the current Agora have not spent time on writing motivational letters, but on the next Agorae they might have to spend time on this. With the current proposal this time will be saved.This proposal does save time for the Agora/EPM application process to all applicants as visitors and at the same time provides a fair, transparent mechanism on how places of visitors are distributed. It abolishes the need to lie on the real reason to attend the Agora.Last but not least, the Agora application software used until 2019 was able to calculate visitor places based on such formula. | Yes |
| Shall the submission of names of members be removed from the Antennae Criteria? Current text: Antenna CriteriaArticle 3 Becoming a Contact AntennaCurrent text: Send a members list having at least five members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna. The members list has to be sent to the Comité Directeur for approval;Article 5 Becoming an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a members list having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Article 6 Remaining an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a list of current members before every Agora having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Proposal: remove the above text on the three placesRationale:The purpose of the remaining antannae criteria is to validate that the local organization is alive, does collaborate to some extent with other parts of the AEGEE network, or regulate tax payments.The criterion to submit a list of names of members does not fulfill any of the mentioned purposes, it does end in itself. “End in itself” means something that one does because one wants to and not because it will help achieve or accomplish something else (Merriam-Webster). These lists with members are not needed for the operations of AEGEE.Each antannae criterion is meant to be independent of each other, thus failing to fulfill one criterion does not imply that other criteria are also not fulfilled. Nevertheless concerning the fulfillment of the List of members criterion it was bound in the past as a requirement to fulfill other criteria. E.g. an email over BOARINF-L from 19 July 2018 contains:> The Comité Directeur and the Juridical Commission will be using the members list:> - To calculate the membership fees of locals;The email on ANNOUNCE-L from 25 August 2015 provides this explanation:> If for some reason you will not submit the members lists, the following things will happen:> 1. If your local doesn’t submit the Members' list then a *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 2. If your local doesn't submit the Membership fee with the members' list, the *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 3. The Comité Directeur and the Chair team cannot cross-check it if the members applying for the Agora are (still) members -> it's impossible to accept delegates --> the local cannot take part in the Agora -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> 4. The Financial Director cannot know how much is your fee to pay to AEGEE-Europe --> you cannot pay fees -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> Result = Your local is not fulfilling 3 criteria --> you risk to be downgraded or deleted!There were more such messages in the past.Until recently the practice was not to downgrade an antenna, if it does not fulfill a single criterion, except tax obligations. An email from 10 October 2022 on ANNOUNCE-L suggests to downgrade Antennae just because it has not sent the list of members, even if there are no concerns with the other criteria.As can be seen, the criterion to send list of members was used in the past to justify that antennae are not able to calculate the amount of fees they have to pay, or CD and Chair cannot validate if the members, approved by the local boards, are (still) members. Antannae are however capable and competent to calculate the amount of fees they have to transfer to AEGEE-Europe; CD and chair do not have the task to validate, if members of the Agora, approved by local boards, are (still) members of an antenna.A new criterion can be introduced in the future, stating that the number of members must be submitted. I have no concerns against submitting the number of members, without their names.The existing to-be-deleted antennae criterion does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | Yes |
| Response ID | 34 |
| Date last action | 2022-11-16 08:30:35 |
| Your name (and body) This information, together with your answers, will be public and possibly indexed by search engines. This is the only mandatory question in the survey. | Victoria Nedye |
| Do you see necessity for convoking the Extraordinary Agora 2022? The procedures to propose to the Agora to downgrade or delete antannae were not followed, therefore the Autumn Agora 2022 has not voted on downgrading/deleting antennae. The Extraordinary Agora 2022 is convoked to catch up with this voting. In case there is no extraordinary Agora, the voting will be done during Spring Agora 2023. Before convoking an extraordinary Agora in the ideal case there shall be some consultations. A form of consultations would have been a motion during the last ordinary Agora, on whether to convoke an extraordinary Agora. Rumours say that the Juridical Commission declared a motion on this topic as inadmissible. Hence the name “The Inadmissible Survey”. | No |
| Shall www.aegee.org stop collecting cookies? AEGEE is not a data-driven organization. There is probably nobody available to analyze the information collected using cookies at www.aegee.org, and then take actions. Without cookies loaded at www.aegee.org AEGEE will be more privacy oriented. | No |
| Do you think there shall have been a pre-Agora voting on the proposals, submitted to the Juridical Commission 30 days before the start of Extraordinary Agora 2022? One of the proposals changes the CIA to forbid voting on antennae degradation/deletion during an Extraordinary Agora. The reason to convoke extraordinary Agora 2022 is to vote on antennae degradation/deletion, as it was skipped during the Autumn Agora 2022. If that proposal was approved during a pre-Agora voting, the reason the convoke Extraordinary Agora 2022 would be void. | No |
| Shall the eligibility requirement for delegates and envoys, according to which delegates must have joined AEGEE half a year ago, be removed? In Working Format of the Agora, Article 5.2Current text: “In order to get elected, the delegates and envoys of Locals must be on the members list the respective Local submitted before the preceding Agora, with the exception of members who have been announced as members of the local board at least three months before the start of the Agora.”Proposed text: deletion of the above requirementRationale: Each AEGEE Antenna can decide best, based on its current situation, who to send to the Agora. When new members with time and money can attend the Agora, while older members without time or money cannot attend the Agora, the antenna should be entitled to make rational decision about who to send to the Agora. There is no need to restrict antennae who to send to the Agora, and then having lengthy discussions about granting exceptions, when the to-be-deleted requirement is not met. Moreover, the current text does not say that AEGEE-Europe may interfere or overrule decisions of an antennae who to send to the agora. Nevertheless such interferences are done in order to demonstrate who has the power.While it is reasonable to send as delegates members who know AEGEE for a longer time, this is just advice. The general assembly of an antenna can decide that a new member is a better choice as delegate than an older member, based on personal impressions. Also in this case it is not reasonable to prohibit antennae to select the person, who they think is best as delegate. In other words, the current regulation can cause problems, does not solve problems and there is no need for this restriction. This rule does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | No |
| Shall Antennae be downgraded or deleted only once a year? In Antennae Criteria, Article 8Current text: The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.Proposed text: «Antenna or Contact Antenna can be downgraded or deleted only during an ordinary Agora and only if on the previous ordinary Agora there was no voting on deletion or downgrading. The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.If the proposal is approved, it is enacted from the moment of its approval, not the day after the Agora ends. (Cf. Article 19 Working Format of the Agora)»Rationale: The current practice is to downgrade/delete antennae twice a year. It is however sufficient to downgrade or delete antennae once a year, as the result will be the same, as when the operation is performed twice a year. This text reduces the frequency of applying the procedure. Performing twice a year the procedure takes twice as much time, before and during the Agora. With the proposed simplification less time will be spent on formalities.WF Agora Article 19 states that Agora decisions come into force the day after the Agora ends, unless stated otherwise explicitly in the decision voted upon. The current proposal states explicitly that antennae deletion/degradation can be done only during an ordinary Agora. By approving the current proposal, the reason to convoke the Extraordinary Agora 2022 will be void. Moreover the current proposal overrules the JC-decision that not having a voting on antenna degradation/deletion/downgrading justifies a necessity, an important reason to convoke an Agora. All in all, the proposal reduces formalities applied in AEGEE, without having side effects. | Yes |
| Shall the CD publish yearly the amount of natural members AEGEE has? The lack of related text in the CIA coincides with the fact, that the last time the number of members was published was in 2013 (13 000 members), | Yes |
| Shall during the Agora/EPM/SPM application process applicants be asked, whether they shall be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L? Working format of the Agora, Article 2Add new bullet: During the application procedure for Agora, EPM, Strategic Planning Meeting applicants must be offered a checkbox if they want to be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L@lists.aegee.org, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L.Rationale: https://mail.aegee.org/stats.html#subscribers shows the amount of new and deleted subscribers to the mentioned mailing list per year. Before 2019 the proposed above system was applied in practice. As can be seen from the statistics, this ensured that 500+ current members joined the major AEGEE mailing lists each year, compared to 100 now. Once subscribed, they received Open Calls, News, could discuss with other new members ideas on the development of AEGEE, but also raise concerns on a direction AEGEE has taken.Since the new members on the mailing lists are now much less, compared to the past, sending Open Calls, News or having discussions, has also much smaller impact.The possibility to subscribe by visiting https://lists.aegee.org is present, but is not as effective as integrating the subscription with the application system for the Agora/EPM.By utilizing again the previously used, existing software for the Agora application management the impact on sending Open Calls or news over ANNOUNCE-L will be increased. The mentioned mailing lists do not sell personal data. | Yes |
| Shall the number of visitors of the Agora per antenna depend only on the capacity of the organizers and the amount of members of the antenna? Working format of the Agora, Article 7Current text: The number of visitors per body depends on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local. The selection of the visitors shall be made by the Chairperson taking into account the ranking and comment provided by the board of the respective AEGEE localProposed text: The number of visitors per body depends only on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local and on the number of members of the body. The formula for calculating the number of visitors must be announced before the application process starts. Distributing the provided places for visitors among its members is up to the antennae.Rationale: Currently, even if all motivational texts are written very well, some visitors are not accepted, if there is not enough capacity. This is the same situation and result, when all applications contain no motivational text. The primary difference is, that in the latter case less time is spent for the application procedure.Currently, even if the Agora has practically unlimited capacity, applicants as visitors have to spend time on writing some motivational text. If the visitors want to visit the Agora primary because of parties, and write this in their motivation, there will likely be sanctions for stating in the motivational text the truth. So applicants write in the motivational text not the truth, what they think the reason for applying is, but rather text for which they will not be sanctioned. AEGEE has really no need to sanction members for stating what they think. Moreover, sanctioning members, for stating what they think, makes it impossible to evaluate objectively the reasons why members go to a particular Agora.Reiterating the case where an Agora has practically unlimited capacity, requiring from applicants to write motivational text is the same as stating that the time of applicants is nothing worth and therefore this time can be stolen with formalities.Currently, it is not predictable at the time an application is submitted, if the applicant will be accepted as a visitor, or will be rejected. With the proposed text this uncertainty remains, but the time for submitting an application is reduced and the selection procedure will be more transparent.Currently, the “board comment” is sometimes self-evaluation, which self-evaluation does not serve a legitimate purpose.The proposed text intentionally leaves open how to calculate or relate the number of members of non antennae, like Working Groups. It also does not say how to weight the size of the body to the visitors. One possibility is to grant each antenna constantly at least 3 places as visitors, and theremaining places are based on the number of members the antenna has. Or even the delegates can be considered in the calculation, leaving extra small antennae with at least three places (for the delegates) and no visitors. An antenna having twice as many members as another antenna could get granted twice as much visitors by the formula, or as another example - 1.3 times more visitors.The proposed text also leaves open whether the number of members per antenna during the previous Agora shall be taken into account, or the number of members based on the last payment done. The main idea of this change is to publish the selection algorithm before the application process starts.The last sentence of the proposed text suggests that Antennae shall order the visitors during the “Board Approval”. Once the formula is applied and it is clear how many visitors from an antenna are entitled to attend the Agora/EPM, the visitors are accepted in that order. This is a change to the current system, as visitors are selected by members, knowing them personally. If a selected visitor cancels, the next visitor from that antenna from the list can attend. In case of cancellation, when no more visitors from that antennae have applied before the deadline, the formula is applied againand the free place goes to another body. Obviously, if an antenna has fewer applicants than places it would take, all applicants from the antenna are accepted, and the “unused” places are in the pool of free places that are spread among the other antennae based on the formula. Likewise, if there are more places at the Agora thanapplicants, all applicants are accepted.The formula is not specified here, as it is better to evaluate how things develop over time. If the direction is considered in the future as bad, the text for the formula can be specified by a general assembly in the future.The delegates at the current Agora have not spent time on writing motivational letters, but on the next Agorae they might have to spend time on this. With the current proposal this time will be saved.This proposal does save time for the Agora/EPM application process to all applicants as visitors and at the same time provides a fair, transparent mechanism on how places of visitors are distributed. It abolishes the need to lie on the real reason to attend the Agora.Last but not least, the Agora application software used until 2019 was able to calculate visitor places based on such formula. | Yes |
| Shall the submission of names of members be removed from the Antennae Criteria? Current text: Antenna CriteriaArticle 3 Becoming a Contact AntennaCurrent text: Send a members list having at least five members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna. The members list has to be sent to the Comité Directeur for approval;Article 5 Becoming an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a members list having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Article 6 Remaining an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a list of current members before every Agora having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Proposal: remove the above text on the three placesRationale:The purpose of the remaining antannae criteria is to validate that the local organization is alive, does collaborate to some extent with other parts of the AEGEE network, or regulate tax payments.The criterion to submit a list of names of members does not fulfill any of the mentioned purposes, it does end in itself. “End in itself” means something that one does because one wants to and not because it will help achieve or accomplish something else (Merriam-Webster). These lists with members are not needed for the operations of AEGEE.Each antannae criterion is meant to be independent of each other, thus failing to fulfill one criterion does not imply that other criteria are also not fulfilled. Nevertheless concerning the fulfillment of the List of members criterion it was bound in the past as a requirement to fulfill other criteria. E.g. an email over BOARINF-L from 19 July 2018 contains:> The Comité Directeur and the Juridical Commission will be using the members list:> - To calculate the membership fees of locals;The email on ANNOUNCE-L from 25 August 2015 provides this explanation:> If for some reason you will not submit the members lists, the following things will happen:> 1. If your local doesn’t submit the Members' list then a *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 2. If your local doesn't submit the Membership fee with the members' list, the *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 3. The Comité Directeur and the Chair team cannot cross-check it if the members applying for the Agora are (still) members -> it's impossible to accept delegates --> the local cannot take part in the Agora -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> 4. The Financial Director cannot know how much is your fee to pay to AEGEE-Europe --> you cannot pay fees -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> Result = Your local is not fulfilling 3 criteria --> you risk to be downgraded or deleted!There were more such messages in the past.Until recently the practice was not to downgrade an antenna, if it does not fulfill a single criterion, except tax obligations. An email from 10 October 2022 on ANNOUNCE-L suggests to downgrade Antennae just because it has not sent the list of members, even if there are no concerns with the other criteria.As can be seen, the criterion to send list of members was used in the past to justify that antennae are not able to calculate the amount of fees they have to pay, or CD and Chair cannot validate if the members, approved by the local boards, are (still) members. Antannae are however capable and competent to calculate the amount of fees they have to transfer to AEGEE-Europe; CD and chair do not have the task to validate, if members of the Agora, approved by local boards, are (still) members of an antenna.A new criterion can be introduced in the future, stating that the number of members must be submitted. I have no concerns against submitting the number of members, without their names.The existing to-be-deleted antennae criterion does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | Yes |
| Response ID | 35 |
| Date last action | 2022-11-16 08:30:57 |
| Your name (and body) This information, together with your answers, will be public and possibly indexed by search engines. This is the only mandatory question in the survey. | no |
| Do you see necessity for convoking the Extraordinary Agora 2022? The procedures to propose to the Agora to downgrade or delete antannae were not followed, therefore the Autumn Agora 2022 has not voted on downgrading/deleting antennae. The Extraordinary Agora 2022 is convoked to catch up with this voting. In case there is no extraordinary Agora, the voting will be done during Spring Agora 2023. Before convoking an extraordinary Agora in the ideal case there shall be some consultations. A form of consultations would have been a motion during the last ordinary Agora, on whether to convoke an extraordinary Agora. Rumours say that the Juridical Commission declared a motion on this topic as inadmissible. Hence the name “The Inadmissible Survey”. | No |
| Shall www.aegee.org stop collecting cookies? AEGEE is not a data-driven organization. There is probably nobody available to analyze the information collected using cookies at www.aegee.org, and then take actions. Without cookies loaded at www.aegee.org AEGEE will be more privacy oriented. | Yes |
| Do you think there shall have been a pre-Agora voting on the proposals, submitted to the Juridical Commission 30 days before the start of Extraordinary Agora 2022? One of the proposals changes the CIA to forbid voting on antennae degradation/deletion during an Extraordinary Agora. The reason to convoke extraordinary Agora 2022 is to vote on antennae degradation/deletion, as it was skipped during the Autumn Agora 2022. If that proposal was approved during a pre-Agora voting, the reason the convoke Extraordinary Agora 2022 would be void. | No |
| Shall the eligibility requirement for delegates and envoys, according to which delegates must have joined AEGEE half a year ago, be removed? In Working Format of the Agora, Article 5.2Current text: “In order to get elected, the delegates and envoys of Locals must be on the members list the respective Local submitted before the preceding Agora, with the exception of members who have been announced as members of the local board at least three months before the start of the Agora.”Proposed text: deletion of the above requirementRationale: Each AEGEE Antenna can decide best, based on its current situation, who to send to the Agora. When new members with time and money can attend the Agora, while older members without time or money cannot attend the Agora, the antenna should be entitled to make rational decision about who to send to the Agora. There is no need to restrict antennae who to send to the Agora, and then having lengthy discussions about granting exceptions, when the to-be-deleted requirement is not met. Moreover, the current text does not say that AEGEE-Europe may interfere or overrule decisions of an antennae who to send to the agora. Nevertheless such interferences are done in order to demonstrate who has the power.While it is reasonable to send as delegates members who know AEGEE for a longer time, this is just advice. The general assembly of an antenna can decide that a new member is a better choice as delegate than an older member, based on personal impressions. Also in this case it is not reasonable to prohibit antennae to select the person, who they think is best as delegate. In other words, the current regulation can cause problems, does not solve problems and there is no need for this restriction. This rule does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | Yes |
| Shall Antennae be downgraded or deleted only once a year? In Antennae Criteria, Article 8Current text: The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.Proposed text: «Antenna or Contact Antenna can be downgraded or deleted only during an ordinary Agora and only if on the previous ordinary Agora there was no voting on deletion or downgrading. The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.If the proposal is approved, it is enacted from the moment of its approval, not the day after the Agora ends. (Cf. Article 19 Working Format of the Agora)»Rationale: The current practice is to downgrade/delete antennae twice a year. It is however sufficient to downgrade or delete antennae once a year, as the result will be the same, as when the operation is performed twice a year. This text reduces the frequency of applying the procedure. Performing twice a year the procedure takes twice as much time, before and during the Agora. With the proposed simplification less time will be spent on formalities.WF Agora Article 19 states that Agora decisions come into force the day after the Agora ends, unless stated otherwise explicitly in the decision voted upon. The current proposal states explicitly that antennae deletion/degradation can be done only during an ordinary Agora. By approving the current proposal, the reason to convoke the Extraordinary Agora 2022 will be void. Moreover the current proposal overrules the JC-decision that not having a voting on antenna degradation/deletion/downgrading justifies a necessity, an important reason to convoke an Agora. All in all, the proposal reduces formalities applied in AEGEE, without having side effects. | Yes |
| Shall the CD publish yearly the amount of natural members AEGEE has? The lack of related text in the CIA coincides with the fact, that the last time the number of members was published was in 2013 (13 000 members), | Yes |
| Shall during the Agora/EPM/SPM application process applicants be asked, whether they shall be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L? Working format of the Agora, Article 2Add new bullet: During the application procedure for Agora, EPM, Strategic Planning Meeting applicants must be offered a checkbox if they want to be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L@lists.aegee.org, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L.Rationale: https://mail.aegee.org/stats.html#subscribers shows the amount of new and deleted subscribers to the mentioned mailing list per year. Before 2019 the proposed above system was applied in practice. As can be seen from the statistics, this ensured that 500+ current members joined the major AEGEE mailing lists each year, compared to 100 now. Once subscribed, they received Open Calls, News, could discuss with other new members ideas on the development of AEGEE, but also raise concerns on a direction AEGEE has taken.Since the new members on the mailing lists are now much less, compared to the past, sending Open Calls, News or having discussions, has also much smaller impact.The possibility to subscribe by visiting https://lists.aegee.org is present, but is not as effective as integrating the subscription with the application system for the Agora/EPM.By utilizing again the previously used, existing software for the Agora application management the impact on sending Open Calls or news over ANNOUNCE-L will be increased. The mentioned mailing lists do not sell personal data. | No |
| Shall the number of visitors of the Agora per antenna depend only on the capacity of the organizers and the amount of members of the antenna? Working format of the Agora, Article 7Current text: The number of visitors per body depends on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local. The selection of the visitors shall be made by the Chairperson taking into account the ranking and comment provided by the board of the respective AEGEE localProposed text: The number of visitors per body depends only on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local and on the number of members of the body. The formula for calculating the number of visitors must be announced before the application process starts. Distributing the provided places for visitors among its members is up to the antennae.Rationale: Currently, even if all motivational texts are written very well, some visitors are not accepted, if there is not enough capacity. This is the same situation and result, when all applications contain no motivational text. The primary difference is, that in the latter case less time is spent for the application procedure.Currently, even if the Agora has practically unlimited capacity, applicants as visitors have to spend time on writing some motivational text. If the visitors want to visit the Agora primary because of parties, and write this in their motivation, there will likely be sanctions for stating in the motivational text the truth. So applicants write in the motivational text not the truth, what they think the reason for applying is, but rather text for which they will not be sanctioned. AEGEE has really no need to sanction members for stating what they think. Moreover, sanctioning members, for stating what they think, makes it impossible to evaluate objectively the reasons why members go to a particular Agora.Reiterating the case where an Agora has practically unlimited capacity, requiring from applicants to write motivational text is the same as stating that the time of applicants is nothing worth and therefore this time can be stolen with formalities.Currently, it is not predictable at the time an application is submitted, if the applicant will be accepted as a visitor, or will be rejected. With the proposed text this uncertainty remains, but the time for submitting an application is reduced and the selection procedure will be more transparent.Currently, the “board comment” is sometimes self-evaluation, which self-evaluation does not serve a legitimate purpose.The proposed text intentionally leaves open how to calculate or relate the number of members of non antennae, like Working Groups. It also does not say how to weight the size of the body to the visitors. One possibility is to grant each antenna constantly at least 3 places as visitors, and theremaining places are based on the number of members the antenna has. Or even the delegates can be considered in the calculation, leaving extra small antennae with at least three places (for the delegates) and no visitors. An antenna having twice as many members as another antenna could get granted twice as much visitors by the formula, or as another example - 1.3 times more visitors.The proposed text also leaves open whether the number of members per antenna during the previous Agora shall be taken into account, or the number of members based on the last payment done. The main idea of this change is to publish the selection algorithm before the application process starts.The last sentence of the proposed text suggests that Antennae shall order the visitors during the “Board Approval”. Once the formula is applied and it is clear how many visitors from an antenna are entitled to attend the Agora/EPM, the visitors are accepted in that order. This is a change to the current system, as visitors are selected by members, knowing them personally. If a selected visitor cancels, the next visitor from that antenna from the list can attend. In case of cancellation, when no more visitors from that antennae have applied before the deadline, the formula is applied againand the free place goes to another body. Obviously, if an antenna has fewer applicants than places it would take, all applicants from the antenna are accepted, and the “unused” places are in the pool of free places that are spread among the other antennae based on the formula. Likewise, if there are more places at the Agora thanapplicants, all applicants are accepted.The formula is not specified here, as it is better to evaluate how things develop over time. If the direction is considered in the future as bad, the text for the formula can be specified by a general assembly in the future.The delegates at the current Agora have not spent time on writing motivational letters, but on the next Agorae they might have to spend time on this. With the current proposal this time will be saved.This proposal does save time for the Agora/EPM application process to all applicants as visitors and at the same time provides a fair, transparent mechanism on how places of visitors are distributed. It abolishes the need to lie on the real reason to attend the Agora.Last but not least, the Agora application software used until 2019 was able to calculate visitor places based on such formula. | Yes |
| Shall the submission of names of members be removed from the Antennae Criteria? Current text: Antenna CriteriaArticle 3 Becoming a Contact AntennaCurrent text: Send a members list having at least five members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna. The members list has to be sent to the Comité Directeur for approval;Article 5 Becoming an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a members list having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Article 6 Remaining an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a list of current members before every Agora having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Proposal: remove the above text on the three placesRationale:The purpose of the remaining antannae criteria is to validate that the local organization is alive, does collaborate to some extent with other parts of the AEGEE network, or regulate tax payments.The criterion to submit a list of names of members does not fulfill any of the mentioned purposes, it does end in itself. “End in itself” means something that one does because one wants to and not because it will help achieve or accomplish something else (Merriam-Webster). These lists with members are not needed for the operations of AEGEE.Each antannae criterion is meant to be independent of each other, thus failing to fulfill one criterion does not imply that other criteria are also not fulfilled. Nevertheless concerning the fulfillment of the List of members criterion it was bound in the past as a requirement to fulfill other criteria. E.g. an email over BOARINF-L from 19 July 2018 contains:> The Comité Directeur and the Juridical Commission will be using the members list:> - To calculate the membership fees of locals;The email on ANNOUNCE-L from 25 August 2015 provides this explanation:> If for some reason you will not submit the members lists, the following things will happen:> 1. If your local doesn’t submit the Members' list then a *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 2. If your local doesn't submit the Membership fee with the members' list, the *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 3. The Comité Directeur and the Chair team cannot cross-check it if the members applying for the Agora are (still) members -> it's impossible to accept delegates --> the local cannot take part in the Agora -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> 4. The Financial Director cannot know how much is your fee to pay to AEGEE-Europe --> you cannot pay fees -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> Result = Your local is not fulfilling 3 criteria --> you risk to be downgraded or deleted!There were more such messages in the past.Until recently the practice was not to downgrade an antenna, if it does not fulfill a single criterion, except tax obligations. An email from 10 October 2022 on ANNOUNCE-L suggests to downgrade Antennae just because it has not sent the list of members, even if there are no concerns with the other criteria.As can be seen, the criterion to send list of members was used in the past to justify that antennae are not able to calculate the amount of fees they have to pay, or CD and Chair cannot validate if the members, approved by the local boards, are (still) members. Antannae are however capable and competent to calculate the amount of fees they have to transfer to AEGEE-Europe; CD and chair do not have the task to validate, if members of the Agora, approved by local boards, are (still) members of an antenna.A new criterion can be introduced in the future, stating that the number of members must be submitted. I have no concerns against submitting the number of members, without their names.The existing to-be-deleted antennae criterion does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | Yes |
| Response ID | 36 |
| Date last action | 2022-11-16 08:44:26 |
| Your name (and body) This information, together with your answers, will be public and possibly indexed by search engines. This is the only mandatory question in the survey. | Jasper Prinsen, AEGEE-Amsterdam |
| Do you see necessity for convoking the Extraordinary Agora 2022? The procedures to propose to the Agora to downgrade or delete antannae were not followed, therefore the Autumn Agora 2022 has not voted on downgrading/deleting antennae. The Extraordinary Agora 2022 is convoked to catch up with this voting. In case there is no extraordinary Agora, the voting will be done during Spring Agora 2023. Before convoking an extraordinary Agora in the ideal case there shall be some consultations. A form of consultations would have been a motion during the last ordinary Agora, on whether to convoke an extraordinary Agora. Rumours say that the Juridical Commission declared a motion on this topic as inadmissible. Hence the name “The Inadmissible Survey”. | Yes |
| Shall www.aegee.org stop collecting cookies? AEGEE is not a data-driven organization. There is probably nobody available to analyze the information collected using cookies at www.aegee.org, and then take actions. Without cookies loaded at www.aegee.org AEGEE will be more privacy oriented. | No |
| Do you think there shall have been a pre-Agora voting on the proposals, submitted to the Juridical Commission 30 days before the start of Extraordinary Agora 2022? One of the proposals changes the CIA to forbid voting on antennae degradation/deletion during an Extraordinary Agora. The reason to convoke extraordinary Agora 2022 is to vote on antennae degradation/deletion, as it was skipped during the Autumn Agora 2022. If that proposal was approved during a pre-Agora voting, the reason the convoke Extraordinary Agora 2022 would be void. | No |
| Shall the eligibility requirement for delegates and envoys, according to which delegates must have joined AEGEE half a year ago, be removed? In Working Format of the Agora, Article 5.2Current text: “In order to get elected, the delegates and envoys of Locals must be on the members list the respective Local submitted before the preceding Agora, with the exception of members who have been announced as members of the local board at least three months before the start of the Agora.”Proposed text: deletion of the above requirementRationale: Each AEGEE Antenna can decide best, based on its current situation, who to send to the Agora. When new members with time and money can attend the Agora, while older members without time or money cannot attend the Agora, the antenna should be entitled to make rational decision about who to send to the Agora. There is no need to restrict antennae who to send to the Agora, and then having lengthy discussions about granting exceptions, when the to-be-deleted requirement is not met. Moreover, the current text does not say that AEGEE-Europe may interfere or overrule decisions of an antennae who to send to the agora. Nevertheless such interferences are done in order to demonstrate who has the power.While it is reasonable to send as delegates members who know AEGEE for a longer time, this is just advice. The general assembly of an antenna can decide that a new member is a better choice as delegate than an older member, based on personal impressions. Also in this case it is not reasonable to prohibit antennae to select the person, who they think is best as delegate. In other words, the current regulation can cause problems, does not solve problems and there is no need for this restriction. This rule does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | No |
| Shall Antennae be downgraded or deleted only once a year? In Antennae Criteria, Article 8Current text: The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.Proposed text: «Antenna or Contact Antenna can be downgraded or deleted only during an ordinary Agora and only if on the previous ordinary Agora there was no voting on deletion or downgrading. The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.If the proposal is approved, it is enacted from the moment of its approval, not the day after the Agora ends. (Cf. Article 19 Working Format of the Agora)»Rationale: The current practice is to downgrade/delete antennae twice a year. It is however sufficient to downgrade or delete antennae once a year, as the result will be the same, as when the operation is performed twice a year. This text reduces the frequency of applying the procedure. Performing twice a year the procedure takes twice as much time, before and during the Agora. With the proposed simplification less time will be spent on formalities.WF Agora Article 19 states that Agora decisions come into force the day after the Agora ends, unless stated otherwise explicitly in the decision voted upon. The current proposal states explicitly that antennae deletion/degradation can be done only during an ordinary Agora. By approving the current proposal, the reason to convoke the Extraordinary Agora 2022 will be void. Moreover the current proposal overrules the JC-decision that not having a voting on antenna degradation/deletion/downgrading justifies a necessity, an important reason to convoke an Agora. All in all, the proposal reduces formalities applied in AEGEE, without having side effects. | No |
| Shall the CD publish yearly the amount of natural members AEGEE has? The lack of related text in the CIA coincides with the fact, that the last time the number of members was published was in 2013 (13 000 members), | Yes |
| Shall during the Agora/EPM/SPM application process applicants be asked, whether they shall be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L? Working format of the Agora, Article 2Add new bullet: During the application procedure for Agora, EPM, Strategic Planning Meeting applicants must be offered a checkbox if they want to be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L@lists.aegee.org, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L.Rationale: https://mail.aegee.org/stats.html#subscribers shows the amount of new and deleted subscribers to the mentioned mailing list per year. Before 2019 the proposed above system was applied in practice. As can be seen from the statistics, this ensured that 500+ current members joined the major AEGEE mailing lists each year, compared to 100 now. Once subscribed, they received Open Calls, News, could discuss with other new members ideas on the development of AEGEE, but also raise concerns on a direction AEGEE has taken.Since the new members on the mailing lists are now much less, compared to the past, sending Open Calls, News or having discussions, has also much smaller impact.The possibility to subscribe by visiting https://lists.aegee.org is present, but is not as effective as integrating the subscription with the application system for the Agora/EPM.By utilizing again the previously used, existing software for the Agora application management the impact on sending Open Calls or news over ANNOUNCE-L will be increased. The mentioned mailing lists do not sell personal data. | No |
| Shall the number of visitors of the Agora per antenna depend only on the capacity of the organizers and the amount of members of the antenna? Working format of the Agora, Article 7Current text: The number of visitors per body depends on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local. The selection of the visitors shall be made by the Chairperson taking into account the ranking and comment provided by the board of the respective AEGEE localProposed text: The number of visitors per body depends only on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local and on the number of members of the body. The formula for calculating the number of visitors must be announced before the application process starts. Distributing the provided places for visitors among its members is up to the antennae.Rationale: Currently, even if all motivational texts are written very well, some visitors are not accepted, if there is not enough capacity. This is the same situation and result, when all applications contain no motivational text. The primary difference is, that in the latter case less time is spent for the application procedure.Currently, even if the Agora has practically unlimited capacity, applicants as visitors have to spend time on writing some motivational text. If the visitors want to visit the Agora primary because of parties, and write this in their motivation, there will likely be sanctions for stating in the motivational text the truth. So applicants write in the motivational text not the truth, what they think the reason for applying is, but rather text for which they will not be sanctioned. AEGEE has really no need to sanction members for stating what they think. Moreover, sanctioning members, for stating what they think, makes it impossible to evaluate objectively the reasons why members go to a particular Agora.Reiterating the case where an Agora has practically unlimited capacity, requiring from applicants to write motivational text is the same as stating that the time of applicants is nothing worth and therefore this time can be stolen with formalities.Currently, it is not predictable at the time an application is submitted, if the applicant will be accepted as a visitor, or will be rejected. With the proposed text this uncertainty remains, but the time for submitting an application is reduced and the selection procedure will be more transparent.Currently, the “board comment” is sometimes self-evaluation, which self-evaluation does not serve a legitimate purpose.The proposed text intentionally leaves open how to calculate or relate the number of members of non antennae, like Working Groups. It also does not say how to weight the size of the body to the visitors. One possibility is to grant each antenna constantly at least 3 places as visitors, and theremaining places are based on the number of members the antenna has. Or even the delegates can be considered in the calculation, leaving extra small antennae with at least three places (for the delegates) and no visitors. An antenna having twice as many members as another antenna could get granted twice as much visitors by the formula, or as another example - 1.3 times more visitors.The proposed text also leaves open whether the number of members per antenna during the previous Agora shall be taken into account, or the number of members based on the last payment done. The main idea of this change is to publish the selection algorithm before the application process starts.The last sentence of the proposed text suggests that Antennae shall order the visitors during the “Board Approval”. Once the formula is applied and it is clear how many visitors from an antenna are entitled to attend the Agora/EPM, the visitors are accepted in that order. This is a change to the current system, as visitors are selected by members, knowing them personally. If a selected visitor cancels, the next visitor from that antenna from the list can attend. In case of cancellation, when no more visitors from that antennae have applied before the deadline, the formula is applied againand the free place goes to another body. Obviously, if an antenna has fewer applicants than places it would take, all applicants from the antenna are accepted, and the “unused” places are in the pool of free places that are spread among the other antennae based on the formula. Likewise, if there are more places at the Agora thanapplicants, all applicants are accepted.The formula is not specified here, as it is better to evaluate how things develop over time. If the direction is considered in the future as bad, the text for the formula can be specified by a general assembly in the future.The delegates at the current Agora have not spent time on writing motivational letters, but on the next Agorae they might have to spend time on this. With the current proposal this time will be saved.This proposal does save time for the Agora/EPM application process to all applicants as visitors and at the same time provides a fair, transparent mechanism on how places of visitors are distributed. It abolishes the need to lie on the real reason to attend the Agora.Last but not least, the Agora application software used until 2019 was able to calculate visitor places based on such formula. | No |
| Shall the submission of names of members be removed from the Antennae Criteria? Current text: Antenna CriteriaArticle 3 Becoming a Contact AntennaCurrent text: Send a members list having at least five members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna. The members list has to be sent to the Comité Directeur for approval;Article 5 Becoming an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a members list having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Article 6 Remaining an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a list of current members before every Agora having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Proposal: remove the above text on the three placesRationale:The purpose of the remaining antannae criteria is to validate that the local organization is alive, does collaborate to some extent with other parts of the AEGEE network, or regulate tax payments.The criterion to submit a list of names of members does not fulfill any of the mentioned purposes, it does end in itself. “End in itself” means something that one does because one wants to and not because it will help achieve or accomplish something else (Merriam-Webster). These lists with members are not needed for the operations of AEGEE.Each antannae criterion is meant to be independent of each other, thus failing to fulfill one criterion does not imply that other criteria are also not fulfilled. Nevertheless concerning the fulfillment of the List of members criterion it was bound in the past as a requirement to fulfill other criteria. E.g. an email over BOARINF-L from 19 July 2018 contains:> The Comité Directeur and the Juridical Commission will be using the members list:> - To calculate the membership fees of locals;The email on ANNOUNCE-L from 25 August 2015 provides this explanation:> If for some reason you will not submit the members lists, the following things will happen:> 1. If your local doesn’t submit the Members' list then a *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 2. If your local doesn't submit the Membership fee with the members' list, the *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 3. The Comité Directeur and the Chair team cannot cross-check it if the members applying for the Agora are (still) members -> it's impossible to accept delegates --> the local cannot take part in the Agora -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> 4. The Financial Director cannot know how much is your fee to pay to AEGEE-Europe --> you cannot pay fees -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> Result = Your local is not fulfilling 3 criteria --> you risk to be downgraded or deleted!There were more such messages in the past.Until recently the practice was not to downgrade an antenna, if it does not fulfill a single criterion, except tax obligations. An email from 10 October 2022 on ANNOUNCE-L suggests to downgrade Antennae just because it has not sent the list of members, even if there are no concerns with the other criteria.As can be seen, the criterion to send list of members was used in the past to justify that antennae are not able to calculate the amount of fees they have to pay, or CD and Chair cannot validate if the members, approved by the local boards, are (still) members. Antannae are however capable and competent to calculate the amount of fees they have to transfer to AEGEE-Europe; CD and chair do not have the task to validate, if members of the Agora, approved by local boards, are (still) members of an antenna.A new criterion can be introduced in the future, stating that the number of members must be submitted. I have no concerns against submitting the number of members, without their names.The existing to-be-deleted antennae criterion does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | No |
| Comments You can write anything here. | Your questions were leading. So your answers will be biased, making the answers inadmissible. The topics of the questions were also too broad to give enough elaboration, some open questions would have been good. By the way, pretending we are not a data-driven organisation is kind of old-school thinking. Data is one of the most important things connecting our network right now. |
| Response ID | 43 |
| Date last action | 2022-11-16 10:24:30 |
| Your name (and body) This information, together with your answers, will be public and possibly indexed by search engines. This is the only mandatory question in the survey. | Without cookies loaded at www.aegee.org AEGEE will be more privacy oriented. --> and then you want to publish my name? |
| Do you see necessity for convoking the Extraordinary Agora 2022? The procedures to propose to the Agora to downgrade or delete antannae were not followed, therefore the Autumn Agora 2022 has not voted on downgrading/deleting antennae. The Extraordinary Agora 2022 is convoked to catch up with this voting. In case there is no extraordinary Agora, the voting will be done during Spring Agora 2023. Before convoking an extraordinary Agora in the ideal case there shall be some consultations. A form of consultations would have been a motion during the last ordinary Agora, on whether to convoke an extraordinary Agora. Rumours say that the Juridical Commission declared a motion on this topic as inadmissible. Hence the name “The Inadmissible Survey”. | Yes |
| Shall www.aegee.org stop collecting cookies? AEGEE is not a data-driven organization. There is probably nobody available to analyze the information collected using cookies at www.aegee.org, and then take actions. Without cookies loaded at www.aegee.org AEGEE will be more privacy oriented. | No |
| Do you think there shall have been a pre-Agora voting on the proposals, submitted to the Juridical Commission 30 days before the start of Extraordinary Agora 2022? One of the proposals changes the CIA to forbid voting on antennae degradation/deletion during an Extraordinary Agora. The reason to convoke extraordinary Agora 2022 is to vote on antennae degradation/deletion, as it was skipped during the Autumn Agora 2022. If that proposal was approved during a pre-Agora voting, the reason the convoke Extraordinary Agora 2022 would be void. | N/A |
| Shall the eligibility requirement for delegates and envoys, according to which delegates must have joined AEGEE half a year ago, be removed? In Working Format of the Agora, Article 5.2Current text: “In order to get elected, the delegates and envoys of Locals must be on the members list the respective Local submitted before the preceding Agora, with the exception of members who have been announced as members of the local board at least three months before the start of the Agora.”Proposed text: deletion of the above requirementRationale: Each AEGEE Antenna can decide best, based on its current situation, who to send to the Agora. When new members with time and money can attend the Agora, while older members without time or money cannot attend the Agora, the antenna should be entitled to make rational decision about who to send to the Agora. There is no need to restrict antennae who to send to the Agora, and then having lengthy discussions about granting exceptions, when the to-be-deleted requirement is not met. Moreover, the current text does not say that AEGEE-Europe may interfere or overrule decisions of an antennae who to send to the agora. Nevertheless such interferences are done in order to demonstrate who has the power.While it is reasonable to send as delegates members who know AEGEE for a longer time, this is just advice. The general assembly of an antenna can decide that a new member is a better choice as delegate than an older member, based on personal impressions. Also in this case it is not reasonable to prohibit antennae to select the person, who they think is best as delegate. In other words, the current regulation can cause problems, does not solve problems and there is no need for this restriction. This rule does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | N/A |
| Shall Antennae be downgraded or deleted only once a year? In Antennae Criteria, Article 8Current text: The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.Proposed text: «Antenna or Contact Antenna can be downgraded or deleted only during an ordinary Agora and only if on the previous ordinary Agora there was no voting on deletion or downgrading. The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.If the proposal is approved, it is enacted from the moment of its approval, not the day after the Agora ends. (Cf. Article 19 Working Format of the Agora)»Rationale: The current practice is to downgrade/delete antennae twice a year. It is however sufficient to downgrade or delete antennae once a year, as the result will be the same, as when the operation is performed twice a year. This text reduces the frequency of applying the procedure. Performing twice a year the procedure takes twice as much time, before and during the Agora. With the proposed simplification less time will be spent on formalities.WF Agora Article 19 states that Agora decisions come into force the day after the Agora ends, unless stated otherwise explicitly in the decision voted upon. The current proposal states explicitly that antennae deletion/degradation can be done only during an ordinary Agora. By approving the current proposal, the reason to convoke the Extraordinary Agora 2022 will be void. Moreover the current proposal overrules the JC-decision that not having a voting on antenna degradation/deletion/downgrading justifies a necessity, an important reason to convoke an Agora. All in all, the proposal reduces formalities applied in AEGEE, without having side effects. | No |
| Shall the CD publish yearly the amount of natural members AEGEE has? The lack of related text in the CIA coincides with the fact, that the last time the number of members was published was in 2013 (13 000 members), | N/A |
| Shall during the Agora/EPM/SPM application process applicants be asked, whether they shall be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L? Working format of the Agora, Article 2Add new bullet: During the application procedure for Agora, EPM, Strategic Planning Meeting applicants must be offered a checkbox if they want to be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L@lists.aegee.org, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L.Rationale: https://mail.aegee.org/stats.html#subscribers shows the amount of new and deleted subscribers to the mentioned mailing list per year. Before 2019 the proposed above system was applied in practice. As can be seen from the statistics, this ensured that 500+ current members joined the major AEGEE mailing lists each year, compared to 100 now. Once subscribed, they received Open Calls, News, could discuss with other new members ideas on the development of AEGEE, but also raise concerns on a direction AEGEE has taken.Since the new members on the mailing lists are now much less, compared to the past, sending Open Calls, News or having discussions, has also much smaller impact.The possibility to subscribe by visiting https://lists.aegee.org is present, but is not as effective as integrating the subscription with the application system for the Agora/EPM.By utilizing again the previously used, existing software for the Agora application management the impact on sending Open Calls or news over ANNOUNCE-L will be increased. The mentioned mailing lists do not sell personal data. | No |
| Shall the number of visitors of the Agora per antenna depend only on the capacity of the organizers and the amount of members of the antenna? Working format of the Agora, Article 7Current text: The number of visitors per body depends on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local. The selection of the visitors shall be made by the Chairperson taking into account the ranking and comment provided by the board of the respective AEGEE localProposed text: The number of visitors per body depends only on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local and on the number of members of the body. The formula for calculating the number of visitors must be announced before the application process starts. Distributing the provided places for visitors among its members is up to the antennae.Rationale: Currently, even if all motivational texts are written very well, some visitors are not accepted, if there is not enough capacity. This is the same situation and result, when all applications contain no motivational text. The primary difference is, that in the latter case less time is spent for the application procedure.Currently, even if the Agora has practically unlimited capacity, applicants as visitors have to spend time on writing some motivational text. If the visitors want to visit the Agora primary because of parties, and write this in their motivation, there will likely be sanctions for stating in the motivational text the truth. So applicants write in the motivational text not the truth, what they think the reason for applying is, but rather text for which they will not be sanctioned. AEGEE has really no need to sanction members for stating what they think. Moreover, sanctioning members, for stating what they think, makes it impossible to evaluate objectively the reasons why members go to a particular Agora.Reiterating the case where an Agora has practically unlimited capacity, requiring from applicants to write motivational text is the same as stating that the time of applicants is nothing worth and therefore this time can be stolen with formalities.Currently, it is not predictable at the time an application is submitted, if the applicant will be accepted as a visitor, or will be rejected. With the proposed text this uncertainty remains, but the time for submitting an application is reduced and the selection procedure will be more transparent.Currently, the “board comment” is sometimes self-evaluation, which self-evaluation does not serve a legitimate purpose.The proposed text intentionally leaves open how to calculate or relate the number of members of non antennae, like Working Groups. It also does not say how to weight the size of the body to the visitors. One possibility is to grant each antenna constantly at least 3 places as visitors, and theremaining places are based on the number of members the antenna has. Or even the delegates can be considered in the calculation, leaving extra small antennae with at least three places (for the delegates) and no visitors. An antenna having twice as many members as another antenna could get granted twice as much visitors by the formula, or as another example - 1.3 times more visitors.The proposed text also leaves open whether the number of members per antenna during the previous Agora shall be taken into account, or the number of members based on the last payment done. The main idea of this change is to publish the selection algorithm before the application process starts.The last sentence of the proposed text suggests that Antennae shall order the visitors during the “Board Approval”. Once the formula is applied and it is clear how many visitors from an antenna are entitled to attend the Agora/EPM, the visitors are accepted in that order. This is a change to the current system, as visitors are selected by members, knowing them personally. If a selected visitor cancels, the next visitor from that antenna from the list can attend. In case of cancellation, when no more visitors from that antennae have applied before the deadline, the formula is applied againand the free place goes to another body. Obviously, if an antenna has fewer applicants than places it would take, all applicants from the antenna are accepted, and the “unused” places are in the pool of free places that are spread among the other antennae based on the formula. Likewise, if there are more places at the Agora thanapplicants, all applicants are accepted.The formula is not specified here, as it is better to evaluate how things develop over time. If the direction is considered in the future as bad, the text for the formula can be specified by a general assembly in the future.The delegates at the current Agora have not spent time on writing motivational letters, but on the next Agorae they might have to spend time on this. With the current proposal this time will be saved.This proposal does save time for the Agora/EPM application process to all applicants as visitors and at the same time provides a fair, transparent mechanism on how places of visitors are distributed. It abolishes the need to lie on the real reason to attend the Agora.Last but not least, the Agora application software used until 2019 was able to calculate visitor places based on such formula. | No |
| Shall the submission of names of members be removed from the Antennae Criteria? Current text: Antenna CriteriaArticle 3 Becoming a Contact AntennaCurrent text: Send a members list having at least five members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna. The members list has to be sent to the Comité Directeur for approval;Article 5 Becoming an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a members list having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Article 6 Remaining an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a list of current members before every Agora having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Proposal: remove the above text on the three placesRationale:The purpose of the remaining antannae criteria is to validate that the local organization is alive, does collaborate to some extent with other parts of the AEGEE network, or regulate tax payments.The criterion to submit a list of names of members does not fulfill any of the mentioned purposes, it does end in itself. “End in itself” means something that one does because one wants to and not because it will help achieve or accomplish something else (Merriam-Webster). These lists with members are not needed for the operations of AEGEE.Each antannae criterion is meant to be independent of each other, thus failing to fulfill one criterion does not imply that other criteria are also not fulfilled. Nevertheless concerning the fulfillment of the List of members criterion it was bound in the past as a requirement to fulfill other criteria. E.g. an email over BOARINF-L from 19 July 2018 contains:> The Comité Directeur and the Juridical Commission will be using the members list:> - To calculate the membership fees of locals;The email on ANNOUNCE-L from 25 August 2015 provides this explanation:> If for some reason you will not submit the members lists, the following things will happen:> 1. If your local doesn’t submit the Members' list then a *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 2. If your local doesn't submit the Membership fee with the members' list, the *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 3. The Comité Directeur and the Chair team cannot cross-check it if the members applying for the Agora are (still) members -> it's impossible to accept delegates --> the local cannot take part in the Agora -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> 4. The Financial Director cannot know how much is your fee to pay to AEGEE-Europe --> you cannot pay fees -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> Result = Your local is not fulfilling 3 criteria --> you risk to be downgraded or deleted!There were more such messages in the past.Until recently the practice was not to downgrade an antenna, if it does not fulfill a single criterion, except tax obligations. An email from 10 October 2022 on ANNOUNCE-L suggests to downgrade Antennae just because it has not sent the list of members, even if there are no concerns with the other criteria.As can be seen, the criterion to send list of members was used in the past to justify that antennae are not able to calculate the amount of fees they have to pay, or CD and Chair cannot validate if the members, approved by the local boards, are (still) members. Antannae are however capable and competent to calculate the amount of fees they have to transfer to AEGEE-Europe; CD and chair do not have the task to validate, if members of the Agora, approved by local boards, are (still) members of an antenna.A new criterion can be introduced in the future, stating that the number of members must be submitted. I have no concerns against submitting the number of members, without their names.The existing to-be-deleted antennae criterion does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | N/A |
| Comments You can write anything here. | I hope you realize that sometimes what the network wants, is not the best for the network |
| Response ID | 53 |
| Date last action | 2022-11-16 12:39:40 |
| Your name (and body) This information, together with your answers, will be public and possibly indexed by search engines. This is the only mandatory question in the survey. | Tom Kwakkenbos, AEGEE-Odessa, AEGEE-Tilburg |
| Do you see necessity for convoking the Extraordinary Agora 2022? The procedures to propose to the Agora to downgrade or delete antannae were not followed, therefore the Autumn Agora 2022 has not voted on downgrading/deleting antennae. The Extraordinary Agora 2022 is convoked to catch up with this voting. In case there is no extraordinary Agora, the voting will be done during Spring Agora 2023. Before convoking an extraordinary Agora in the ideal case there shall be some consultations. A form of consultations would have been a motion during the last ordinary Agora, on whether to convoke an extraordinary Agora. Rumours say that the Juridical Commission declared a motion on this topic as inadmissible. Hence the name “The Inadmissible Survey”. | Yes |
| Shall www.aegee.org stop collecting cookies? AEGEE is not a data-driven organization. There is probably nobody available to analyze the information collected using cookies at www.aegee.org, and then take actions. Without cookies loaded at www.aegee.org AEGEE will be more privacy oriented. | No |
| Do you think there shall have been a pre-Agora voting on the proposals, submitted to the Juridical Commission 30 days before the start of Extraordinary Agora 2022? One of the proposals changes the CIA to forbid voting on antennae degradation/deletion during an Extraordinary Agora. The reason to convoke extraordinary Agora 2022 is to vote on antennae degradation/deletion, as it was skipped during the Autumn Agora 2022. If that proposal was approved during a pre-Agora voting, the reason the convoke Extraordinary Agora 2022 would be void. | No |
| Shall the eligibility requirement for delegates and envoys, according to which delegates must have joined AEGEE half a year ago, be removed? In Working Format of the Agora, Article 5.2Current text: “In order to get elected, the delegates and envoys of Locals must be on the members list the respective Local submitted before the preceding Agora, with the exception of members who have been announced as members of the local board at least three months before the start of the Agora.”Proposed text: deletion of the above requirementRationale: Each AEGEE Antenna can decide best, based on its current situation, who to send to the Agora. When new members with time and money can attend the Agora, while older members without time or money cannot attend the Agora, the antenna should be entitled to make rational decision about who to send to the Agora. There is no need to restrict antennae who to send to the Agora, and then having lengthy discussions about granting exceptions, when the to-be-deleted requirement is not met. Moreover, the current text does not say that AEGEE-Europe may interfere or overrule decisions of an antennae who to send to the agora. Nevertheless such interferences are done in order to demonstrate who has the power.While it is reasonable to send as delegates members who know AEGEE for a longer time, this is just advice. The general assembly of an antenna can decide that a new member is a better choice as delegate than an older member, based on personal impressions. Also in this case it is not reasonable to prohibit antennae to select the person, who they think is best as delegate. In other words, the current regulation can cause problems, does not solve problems and there is no need for this restriction. This rule does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | Yes |
| Shall Antennae be downgraded or deleted only once a year? In Antennae Criteria, Article 8Current text: The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.Proposed text: «Antenna or Contact Antenna can be downgraded or deleted only during an ordinary Agora and only if on the previous ordinary Agora there was no voting on deletion or downgrading. The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.If the proposal is approved, it is enacted from the moment of its approval, not the day after the Agora ends. (Cf. Article 19 Working Format of the Agora)»Rationale: The current practice is to downgrade/delete antennae twice a year. It is however sufficient to downgrade or delete antennae once a year, as the result will be the same, as when the operation is performed twice a year. This text reduces the frequency of applying the procedure. Performing twice a year the procedure takes twice as much time, before and during the Agora. With the proposed simplification less time will be spent on formalities.WF Agora Article 19 states that Agora decisions come into force the day after the Agora ends, unless stated otherwise explicitly in the decision voted upon. The current proposal states explicitly that antennae deletion/degradation can be done only during an ordinary Agora. By approving the current proposal, the reason to convoke the Extraordinary Agora 2022 will be void. Moreover the current proposal overrules the JC-decision that not having a voting on antenna degradation/deletion/downgrading justifies a necessity, an important reason to convoke an Agora. All in all, the proposal reduces formalities applied in AEGEE, without having side effects. | No |
| Shall the CD publish yearly the amount of natural members AEGEE has? The lack of related text in the CIA coincides with the fact, that the last time the number of members was published was in 2013 (13 000 members), | Yes |
| Shall during the Agora/EPM/SPM application process applicants be asked, whether they shall be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L? Working format of the Agora, Article 2Add new bullet: During the application procedure for Agora, EPM, Strategic Planning Meeting applicants must be offered a checkbox if they want to be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L@lists.aegee.org, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L.Rationale: https://mail.aegee.org/stats.html#subscribers shows the amount of new and deleted subscribers to the mentioned mailing list per year. Before 2019 the proposed above system was applied in practice. As can be seen from the statistics, this ensured that 500+ current members joined the major AEGEE mailing lists each year, compared to 100 now. Once subscribed, they received Open Calls, News, could discuss with other new members ideas on the development of AEGEE, but also raise concerns on a direction AEGEE has taken.Since the new members on the mailing lists are now much less, compared to the past, sending Open Calls, News or having discussions, has also much smaller impact.The possibility to subscribe by visiting https://lists.aegee.org is present, but is not as effective as integrating the subscription with the application system for the Agora/EPM.By utilizing again the previously used, existing software for the Agora application management the impact on sending Open Calls or news over ANNOUNCE-L will be increased. The mentioned mailing lists do not sell personal data. | Yes |
| Shall the number of visitors of the Agora per antenna depend only on the capacity of the organizers and the amount of members of the antenna? Working format of the Agora, Article 7Current text: The number of visitors per body depends on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local. The selection of the visitors shall be made by the Chairperson taking into account the ranking and comment provided by the board of the respective AEGEE localProposed text: The number of visitors per body depends only on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local and on the number of members of the body. The formula for calculating the number of visitors must be announced before the application process starts. Distributing the provided places for visitors among its members is up to the antennae.Rationale: Currently, even if all motivational texts are written very well, some visitors are not accepted, if there is not enough capacity. This is the same situation and result, when all applications contain no motivational text. The primary difference is, that in the latter case less time is spent for the application procedure.Currently, even if the Agora has practically unlimited capacity, applicants as visitors have to spend time on writing some motivational text. If the visitors want to visit the Agora primary because of parties, and write this in their motivation, there will likely be sanctions for stating in the motivational text the truth. So applicants write in the motivational text not the truth, what they think the reason for applying is, but rather text for which they will not be sanctioned. AEGEE has really no need to sanction members for stating what they think. Moreover, sanctioning members, for stating what they think, makes it impossible to evaluate objectively the reasons why members go to a particular Agora.Reiterating the case where an Agora has practically unlimited capacity, requiring from applicants to write motivational text is the same as stating that the time of applicants is nothing worth and therefore this time can be stolen with formalities.Currently, it is not predictable at the time an application is submitted, if the applicant will be accepted as a visitor, or will be rejected. With the proposed text this uncertainty remains, but the time for submitting an application is reduced and the selection procedure will be more transparent.Currently, the “board comment” is sometimes self-evaluation, which self-evaluation does not serve a legitimate purpose.The proposed text intentionally leaves open how to calculate or relate the number of members of non antennae, like Working Groups. It also does not say how to weight the size of the body to the visitors. One possibility is to grant each antenna constantly at least 3 places as visitors, and theremaining places are based on the number of members the antenna has. Or even the delegates can be considered in the calculation, leaving extra small antennae with at least three places (for the delegates) and no visitors. An antenna having twice as many members as another antenna could get granted twice as much visitors by the formula, or as another example - 1.3 times more visitors.The proposed text also leaves open whether the number of members per antenna during the previous Agora shall be taken into account, or the number of members based on the last payment done. The main idea of this change is to publish the selection algorithm before the application process starts.The last sentence of the proposed text suggests that Antennae shall order the visitors during the “Board Approval”. Once the formula is applied and it is clear how many visitors from an antenna are entitled to attend the Agora/EPM, the visitors are accepted in that order. This is a change to the current system, as visitors are selected by members, knowing them personally. If a selected visitor cancels, the next visitor from that antenna from the list can attend. In case of cancellation, when no more visitors from that antennae have applied before the deadline, the formula is applied againand the free place goes to another body. Obviously, if an antenna has fewer applicants than places it would take, all applicants from the antenna are accepted, and the “unused” places are in the pool of free places that are spread among the other antennae based on the formula. Likewise, if there are more places at the Agora thanapplicants, all applicants are accepted.The formula is not specified here, as it is better to evaluate how things develop over time. If the direction is considered in the future as bad, the text for the formula can be specified by a general assembly in the future.The delegates at the current Agora have not spent time on writing motivational letters, but on the next Agorae they might have to spend time on this. With the current proposal this time will be saved.This proposal does save time for the Agora/EPM application process to all applicants as visitors and at the same time provides a fair, transparent mechanism on how places of visitors are distributed. It abolishes the need to lie on the real reason to attend the Agora.Last but not least, the Agora application software used until 2019 was able to calculate visitor places based on such formula. | No |
| Shall the submission of names of members be removed from the Antennae Criteria? Current text: Antenna CriteriaArticle 3 Becoming a Contact AntennaCurrent text: Send a members list having at least five members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna. The members list has to be sent to the Comité Directeur for approval;Article 5 Becoming an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a members list having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Article 6 Remaining an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a list of current members before every Agora having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Proposal: remove the above text on the three placesRationale:The purpose of the remaining antannae criteria is to validate that the local organization is alive, does collaborate to some extent with other parts of the AEGEE network, or regulate tax payments.The criterion to submit a list of names of members does not fulfill any of the mentioned purposes, it does end in itself. “End in itself” means something that one does because one wants to and not because it will help achieve or accomplish something else (Merriam-Webster). These lists with members are not needed for the operations of AEGEE.Each antannae criterion is meant to be independent of each other, thus failing to fulfill one criterion does not imply that other criteria are also not fulfilled. Nevertheless concerning the fulfillment of the List of members criterion it was bound in the past as a requirement to fulfill other criteria. E.g. an email over BOARINF-L from 19 July 2018 contains:> The Comité Directeur and the Juridical Commission will be using the members list:> - To calculate the membership fees of locals;The email on ANNOUNCE-L from 25 August 2015 provides this explanation:> If for some reason you will not submit the members lists, the following things will happen:> 1. If your local doesn’t submit the Members' list then a *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 2. If your local doesn't submit the Membership fee with the members' list, the *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 3. The Comité Directeur and the Chair team cannot cross-check it if the members applying for the Agora are (still) members -> it's impossible to accept delegates --> the local cannot take part in the Agora -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> 4. The Financial Director cannot know how much is your fee to pay to AEGEE-Europe --> you cannot pay fees -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> Result = Your local is not fulfilling 3 criteria --> you risk to be downgraded or deleted!There were more such messages in the past.Until recently the practice was not to downgrade an antenna, if it does not fulfill a single criterion, except tax obligations. An email from 10 October 2022 on ANNOUNCE-L suggests to downgrade Antennae just because it has not sent the list of members, even if there are no concerns with the other criteria.As can be seen, the criterion to send list of members was used in the past to justify that antennae are not able to calculate the amount of fees they have to pay, or CD and Chair cannot validate if the members, approved by the local boards, are (still) members. Antannae are however capable and competent to calculate the amount of fees they have to transfer to AEGEE-Europe; CD and chair do not have the task to validate, if members of the Agora, approved by local boards, are (still) members of an antenna.A new criterion can be introduced in the future, stating that the number of members must be submitted. I have no concerns against submitting the number of members, without their names.The existing to-be-deleted antennae criterion does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | No |
| Response ID | 54 |
| Date last action | 2022-11-16 19:55:18 |
| Your name (and body) This information, together with your answers, will be public and possibly indexed by search engines. This is the only mandatory question in the survey. | Albus Dumbledore, Les Anciens |
| Do you see necessity for convoking the Extraordinary Agora 2022? The procedures to propose to the Agora to downgrade or delete antannae were not followed, therefore the Autumn Agora 2022 has not voted on downgrading/deleting antennae. The Extraordinary Agora 2022 is convoked to catch up with this voting. In case there is no extraordinary Agora, the voting will be done during Spring Agora 2023. Before convoking an extraordinary Agora in the ideal case there shall be some consultations. A form of consultations would have been a motion during the last ordinary Agora, on whether to convoke an extraordinary Agora. Rumours say that the Juridical Commission declared a motion on this topic as inadmissible. Hence the name “The Inadmissible Survey”. | No |
| Shall www.aegee.org stop collecting cookies? AEGEE is not a data-driven organization. There is probably nobody available to analyze the information collected using cookies at www.aegee.org, and then take actions. Without cookies loaded at www.aegee.org AEGEE will be more privacy oriented. | Yes |
| Do you think there shall have been a pre-Agora voting on the proposals, submitted to the Juridical Commission 30 days before the start of Extraordinary Agora 2022? One of the proposals changes the CIA to forbid voting on antennae degradation/deletion during an Extraordinary Agora. The reason to convoke extraordinary Agora 2022 is to vote on antennae degradation/deletion, as it was skipped during the Autumn Agora 2022. If that proposal was approved during a pre-Agora voting, the reason the convoke Extraordinary Agora 2022 would be void. | No |
| Shall the eligibility requirement for delegates and envoys, according to which delegates must have joined AEGEE half a year ago, be removed? In Working Format of the Agora, Article 5.2Current text: “In order to get elected, the delegates and envoys of Locals must be on the members list the respective Local submitted before the preceding Agora, with the exception of members who have been announced as members of the local board at least three months before the start of the Agora.”Proposed text: deletion of the above requirementRationale: Each AEGEE Antenna can decide best, based on its current situation, who to send to the Agora. When new members with time and money can attend the Agora, while older members without time or money cannot attend the Agora, the antenna should be entitled to make rational decision about who to send to the Agora. There is no need to restrict antennae who to send to the Agora, and then having lengthy discussions about granting exceptions, when the to-be-deleted requirement is not met. Moreover, the current text does not say that AEGEE-Europe may interfere or overrule decisions of an antennae who to send to the agora. Nevertheless such interferences are done in order to demonstrate who has the power.While it is reasonable to send as delegates members who know AEGEE for a longer time, this is just advice. The general assembly of an antenna can decide that a new member is a better choice as delegate than an older member, based on personal impressions. Also in this case it is not reasonable to prohibit antennae to select the person, who they think is best as delegate. In other words, the current regulation can cause problems, does not solve problems and there is no need for this restriction. This rule does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | No |
| Shall Antennae be downgraded or deleted only once a year? In Antennae Criteria, Article 8Current text: The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.Proposed text: «Antenna or Contact Antenna can be downgraded or deleted only during an ordinary Agora and only if on the previous ordinary Agora there was no voting on deletion or downgrading. The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.If the proposal is approved, it is enacted from the moment of its approval, not the day after the Agora ends. (Cf. Article 19 Working Format of the Agora)»Rationale: The current practice is to downgrade/delete antennae twice a year. It is however sufficient to downgrade or delete antennae once a year, as the result will be the same, as when the operation is performed twice a year. This text reduces the frequency of applying the procedure. Performing twice a year the procedure takes twice as much time, before and during the Agora. With the proposed simplification less time will be spent on formalities.WF Agora Article 19 states that Agora decisions come into force the day after the Agora ends, unless stated otherwise explicitly in the decision voted upon. The current proposal states explicitly that antennae deletion/degradation can be done only during an ordinary Agora. By approving the current proposal, the reason to convoke the Extraordinary Agora 2022 will be void. Moreover the current proposal overrules the JC-decision that not having a voting on antenna degradation/deletion/downgrading justifies a necessity, an important reason to convoke an Agora. All in all, the proposal reduces formalities applied in AEGEE, without having side effects. | No |
| Shall the CD publish yearly the amount of natural members AEGEE has? The lack of related text in the CIA coincides with the fact, that the last time the number of members was published was in 2013 (13 000 members), | Yes |
| Shall during the Agora/EPM/SPM application process applicants be asked, whether they shall be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L? Working format of the Agora, Article 2Add new bullet: During the application procedure for Agora, EPM, Strategic Planning Meeting applicants must be offered a checkbox if they want to be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L@lists.aegee.org, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L.Rationale: https://mail.aegee.org/stats.html#subscribers shows the amount of new and deleted subscribers to the mentioned mailing list per year. Before 2019 the proposed above system was applied in practice. As can be seen from the statistics, this ensured that 500+ current members joined the major AEGEE mailing lists each year, compared to 100 now. Once subscribed, they received Open Calls, News, could discuss with other new members ideas on the development of AEGEE, but also raise concerns on a direction AEGEE has taken.Since the new members on the mailing lists are now much less, compared to the past, sending Open Calls, News or having discussions, has also much smaller impact.The possibility to subscribe by visiting https://lists.aegee.org is present, but is not as effective as integrating the subscription with the application system for the Agora/EPM.By utilizing again the previously used, existing software for the Agora application management the impact on sending Open Calls or news over ANNOUNCE-L will be increased. The mentioned mailing lists do not sell personal data. | Yes |
| Shall the number of visitors of the Agora per antenna depend only on the capacity of the organizers and the amount of members of the antenna? Working format of the Agora, Article 7Current text: The number of visitors per body depends on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local. The selection of the visitors shall be made by the Chairperson taking into account the ranking and comment provided by the board of the respective AEGEE localProposed text: The number of visitors per body depends only on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local and on the number of members of the body. The formula for calculating the number of visitors must be announced before the application process starts. Distributing the provided places for visitors among its members is up to the antennae.Rationale: Currently, even if all motivational texts are written very well, some visitors are not accepted, if there is not enough capacity. This is the same situation and result, when all applications contain no motivational text. The primary difference is, that in the latter case less time is spent for the application procedure.Currently, even if the Agora has practically unlimited capacity, applicants as visitors have to spend time on writing some motivational text. If the visitors want to visit the Agora primary because of parties, and write this in their motivation, there will likely be sanctions for stating in the motivational text the truth. So applicants write in the motivational text not the truth, what they think the reason for applying is, but rather text for which they will not be sanctioned. AEGEE has really no need to sanction members for stating what they think. Moreover, sanctioning members, for stating what they think, makes it impossible to evaluate objectively the reasons why members go to a particular Agora.Reiterating the case where an Agora has practically unlimited capacity, requiring from applicants to write motivational text is the same as stating that the time of applicants is nothing worth and therefore this time can be stolen with formalities.Currently, it is not predictable at the time an application is submitted, if the applicant will be accepted as a visitor, or will be rejected. With the proposed text this uncertainty remains, but the time for submitting an application is reduced and the selection procedure will be more transparent.Currently, the “board comment” is sometimes self-evaluation, which self-evaluation does not serve a legitimate purpose.The proposed text intentionally leaves open how to calculate or relate the number of members of non antennae, like Working Groups. It also does not say how to weight the size of the body to the visitors. One possibility is to grant each antenna constantly at least 3 places as visitors, and theremaining places are based on the number of members the antenna has. Or even the delegates can be considered in the calculation, leaving extra small antennae with at least three places (for the delegates) and no visitors. An antenna having twice as many members as another antenna could get granted twice as much visitors by the formula, or as another example - 1.3 times more visitors.The proposed text also leaves open whether the number of members per antenna during the previous Agora shall be taken into account, or the number of members based on the last payment done. The main idea of this change is to publish the selection algorithm before the application process starts.The last sentence of the proposed text suggests that Antennae shall order the visitors during the “Board Approval”. Once the formula is applied and it is clear how many visitors from an antenna are entitled to attend the Agora/EPM, the visitors are accepted in that order. This is a change to the current system, as visitors are selected by members, knowing them personally. If a selected visitor cancels, the next visitor from that antenna from the list can attend. In case of cancellation, when no more visitors from that antennae have applied before the deadline, the formula is applied againand the free place goes to another body. Obviously, if an antenna has fewer applicants than places it would take, all applicants from the antenna are accepted, and the “unused” places are in the pool of free places that are spread among the other antennae based on the formula. Likewise, if there are more places at the Agora thanapplicants, all applicants are accepted.The formula is not specified here, as it is better to evaluate how things develop over time. If the direction is considered in the future as bad, the text for the formula can be specified by a general assembly in the future.The delegates at the current Agora have not spent time on writing motivational letters, but on the next Agorae they might have to spend time on this. With the current proposal this time will be saved.This proposal does save time for the Agora/EPM application process to all applicants as visitors and at the same time provides a fair, transparent mechanism on how places of visitors are distributed. It abolishes the need to lie on the real reason to attend the Agora.Last but not least, the Agora application software used until 2019 was able to calculate visitor places based on such formula. | Yes |
| Shall the submission of names of members be removed from the Antennae Criteria? Current text: Antenna CriteriaArticle 3 Becoming a Contact AntennaCurrent text: Send a members list having at least five members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna. The members list has to be sent to the Comité Directeur for approval;Article 5 Becoming an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a members list having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Article 6 Remaining an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a list of current members before every Agora having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Proposal: remove the above text on the three placesRationale:The purpose of the remaining antannae criteria is to validate that the local organization is alive, does collaborate to some extent with other parts of the AEGEE network, or regulate tax payments.The criterion to submit a list of names of members does not fulfill any of the mentioned purposes, it does end in itself. “End in itself” means something that one does because one wants to and not because it will help achieve or accomplish something else (Merriam-Webster). These lists with members are not needed for the operations of AEGEE.Each antannae criterion is meant to be independent of each other, thus failing to fulfill one criterion does not imply that other criteria are also not fulfilled. Nevertheless concerning the fulfillment of the List of members criterion it was bound in the past as a requirement to fulfill other criteria. E.g. an email over BOARINF-L from 19 July 2018 contains:> The Comité Directeur and the Juridical Commission will be using the members list:> - To calculate the membership fees of locals;The email on ANNOUNCE-L from 25 August 2015 provides this explanation:> If for some reason you will not submit the members lists, the following things will happen:> 1. If your local doesn’t submit the Members' list then a *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 2. If your local doesn't submit the Membership fee with the members' list, the *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 3. The Comité Directeur and the Chair team cannot cross-check it if the members applying for the Agora are (still) members -> it's impossible to accept delegates --> the local cannot take part in the Agora -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> 4. The Financial Director cannot know how much is your fee to pay to AEGEE-Europe --> you cannot pay fees -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> Result = Your local is not fulfilling 3 criteria --> you risk to be downgraded or deleted!There were more such messages in the past.Until recently the practice was not to downgrade an antenna, if it does not fulfill a single criterion, except tax obligations. An email from 10 October 2022 on ANNOUNCE-L suggests to downgrade Antennae just because it has not sent the list of members, even if there are no concerns with the other criteria.As can be seen, the criterion to send list of members was used in the past to justify that antennae are not able to calculate the amount of fees they have to pay, or CD and Chair cannot validate if the members, approved by the local boards, are (still) members. Antannae are however capable and competent to calculate the amount of fees they have to transfer to AEGEE-Europe; CD and chair do not have the task to validate, if members of the Agora, approved by local boards, are (still) members of an antenna.A new criterion can be introduced in the future, stating that the number of members must be submitted. I have no concerns against submitting the number of members, without their names.The existing to-be-deleted antennae criterion does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | No |
| Response ID | 58 |
| Date last action | 2022-11-19 13:42:12 |
| Your name (and body) This information, together with your answers, will be public and possibly indexed by search engines. This is the only mandatory question in the survey. | daniel peterson (aegee-madrid) |
| Do you see necessity for convoking the Extraordinary Agora 2022? The procedures to propose to the Agora to downgrade or delete antannae were not followed, therefore the Autumn Agora 2022 has not voted on downgrading/deleting antennae. The Extraordinary Agora 2022 is convoked to catch up with this voting. In case there is no extraordinary Agora, the voting will be done during Spring Agora 2023. Before convoking an extraordinary Agora in the ideal case there shall be some consultations. A form of consultations would have been a motion during the last ordinary Agora, on whether to convoke an extraordinary Agora. Rumours say that the Juridical Commission declared a motion on this topic as inadmissible. Hence the name “The Inadmissible Survey”. | N/A |
| Shall www.aegee.org stop collecting cookies? AEGEE is not a data-driven organization. There is probably nobody available to analyze the information collected using cookies at www.aegee.org, and then take actions. Without cookies loaded at www.aegee.org AEGEE will be more privacy oriented. | N/A |
| Do you think there shall have been a pre-Agora voting on the proposals, submitted to the Juridical Commission 30 days before the start of Extraordinary Agora 2022? One of the proposals changes the CIA to forbid voting on antennae degradation/deletion during an Extraordinary Agora. The reason to convoke extraordinary Agora 2022 is to vote on antennae degradation/deletion, as it was skipped during the Autumn Agora 2022. If that proposal was approved during a pre-Agora voting, the reason the convoke Extraordinary Agora 2022 would be void. | N/A |
| Shall the eligibility requirement for delegates and envoys, according to which delegates must have joined AEGEE half a year ago, be removed? In Working Format of the Agora, Article 5.2Current text: “In order to get elected, the delegates and envoys of Locals must be on the members list the respective Local submitted before the preceding Agora, with the exception of members who have been announced as members of the local board at least three months before the start of the Agora.”Proposed text: deletion of the above requirementRationale: Each AEGEE Antenna can decide best, based on its current situation, who to send to the Agora. When new members with time and money can attend the Agora, while older members without time or money cannot attend the Agora, the antenna should be entitled to make rational decision about who to send to the Agora. There is no need to restrict antennae who to send to the Agora, and then having lengthy discussions about granting exceptions, when the to-be-deleted requirement is not met. Moreover, the current text does not say that AEGEE-Europe may interfere or overrule decisions of an antennae who to send to the agora. Nevertheless such interferences are done in order to demonstrate who has the power.While it is reasonable to send as delegates members who know AEGEE for a longer time, this is just advice. The general assembly of an antenna can decide that a new member is a better choice as delegate than an older member, based on personal impressions. Also in this case it is not reasonable to prohibit antennae to select the person, who they think is best as delegate. In other words, the current regulation can cause problems, does not solve problems and there is no need for this restriction. This rule does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | N/A |
| Shall Antennae be downgraded or deleted only once a year? In Antennae Criteria, Article 8Current text: The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.Proposed text: «Antenna or Contact Antenna can be downgraded or deleted only during an ordinary Agora and only if on the previous ordinary Agora there was no voting on deletion or downgrading. The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.If the proposal is approved, it is enacted from the moment of its approval, not the day after the Agora ends. (Cf. Article 19 Working Format of the Agora)»Rationale: The current practice is to downgrade/delete antennae twice a year. It is however sufficient to downgrade or delete antennae once a year, as the result will be the same, as when the operation is performed twice a year. This text reduces the frequency of applying the procedure. Performing twice a year the procedure takes twice as much time, before and during the Agora. With the proposed simplification less time will be spent on formalities.WF Agora Article 19 states that Agora decisions come into force the day after the Agora ends, unless stated otherwise explicitly in the decision voted upon. The current proposal states explicitly that antennae deletion/degradation can be done only during an ordinary Agora. By approving the current proposal, the reason to convoke the Extraordinary Agora 2022 will be void. Moreover the current proposal overrules the JC-decision that not having a voting on antenna degradation/deletion/downgrading justifies a necessity, an important reason to convoke an Agora. All in all, the proposal reduces formalities applied in AEGEE, without having side effects. | N/A |
| Shall the CD publish yearly the amount of natural members AEGEE has? The lack of related text in the CIA coincides with the fact, that the last time the number of members was published was in 2013 (13 000 members), | N/A |
| Shall during the Agora/EPM/SPM application process applicants be asked, whether they shall be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L? Working format of the Agora, Article 2Add new bullet: During the application procedure for Agora, EPM, Strategic Planning Meeting applicants must be offered a checkbox if they want to be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L@lists.aegee.org, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L.Rationale: https://mail.aegee.org/stats.html#subscribers shows the amount of new and deleted subscribers to the mentioned mailing list per year. Before 2019 the proposed above system was applied in practice. As can be seen from the statistics, this ensured that 500+ current members joined the major AEGEE mailing lists each year, compared to 100 now. Once subscribed, they received Open Calls, News, could discuss with other new members ideas on the development of AEGEE, but also raise concerns on a direction AEGEE has taken.Since the new members on the mailing lists are now much less, compared to the past, sending Open Calls, News or having discussions, has also much smaller impact.The possibility to subscribe by visiting https://lists.aegee.org is present, but is not as effective as integrating the subscription with the application system for the Agora/EPM.By utilizing again the previously used, existing software for the Agora application management the impact on sending Open Calls or news over ANNOUNCE-L will be increased. The mentioned mailing lists do not sell personal data. | N/A |
| Shall the number of visitors of the Agora per antenna depend only on the capacity of the organizers and the amount of members of the antenna? Working format of the Agora, Article 7Current text: The number of visitors per body depends on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local. The selection of the visitors shall be made by the Chairperson taking into account the ranking and comment provided by the board of the respective AEGEE localProposed text: The number of visitors per body depends only on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local and on the number of members of the body. The formula for calculating the number of visitors must be announced before the application process starts. Distributing the provided places for visitors among its members is up to the antennae.Rationale: Currently, even if all motivational texts are written very well, some visitors are not accepted, if there is not enough capacity. This is the same situation and result, when all applications contain no motivational text. The primary difference is, that in the latter case less time is spent for the application procedure.Currently, even if the Agora has practically unlimited capacity, applicants as visitors have to spend time on writing some motivational text. If the visitors want to visit the Agora primary because of parties, and write this in their motivation, there will likely be sanctions for stating in the motivational text the truth. So applicants write in the motivational text not the truth, what they think the reason for applying is, but rather text for which they will not be sanctioned. AEGEE has really no need to sanction members for stating what they think. Moreover, sanctioning members, for stating what they think, makes it impossible to evaluate objectively the reasons why members go to a particular Agora.Reiterating the case where an Agora has practically unlimited capacity, requiring from applicants to write motivational text is the same as stating that the time of applicants is nothing worth and therefore this time can be stolen with formalities.Currently, it is not predictable at the time an application is submitted, if the applicant will be accepted as a visitor, or will be rejected. With the proposed text this uncertainty remains, but the time for submitting an application is reduced and the selection procedure will be more transparent.Currently, the “board comment” is sometimes self-evaluation, which self-evaluation does not serve a legitimate purpose.The proposed text intentionally leaves open how to calculate or relate the number of members of non antennae, like Working Groups. It also does not say how to weight the size of the body to the visitors. One possibility is to grant each antenna constantly at least 3 places as visitors, and theremaining places are based on the number of members the antenna has. Or even the delegates can be considered in the calculation, leaving extra small antennae with at least three places (for the delegates) and no visitors. An antenna having twice as many members as another antenna could get granted twice as much visitors by the formula, or as another example - 1.3 times more visitors.The proposed text also leaves open whether the number of members per antenna during the previous Agora shall be taken into account, or the number of members based on the last payment done. The main idea of this change is to publish the selection algorithm before the application process starts.The last sentence of the proposed text suggests that Antennae shall order the visitors during the “Board Approval”. Once the formula is applied and it is clear how many visitors from an antenna are entitled to attend the Agora/EPM, the visitors are accepted in that order. This is a change to the current system, as visitors are selected by members, knowing them personally. If a selected visitor cancels, the next visitor from that antenna from the list can attend. In case of cancellation, when no more visitors from that antennae have applied before the deadline, the formula is applied againand the free place goes to another body. Obviously, if an antenna has fewer applicants than places it would take, all applicants from the antenna are accepted, and the “unused” places are in the pool of free places that are spread among the other antennae based on the formula. Likewise, if there are more places at the Agora thanapplicants, all applicants are accepted.The formula is not specified here, as it is better to evaluate how things develop over time. If the direction is considered in the future as bad, the text for the formula can be specified by a general assembly in the future.The delegates at the current Agora have not spent time on writing motivational letters, but on the next Agorae they might have to spend time on this. With the current proposal this time will be saved.This proposal does save time for the Agora/EPM application process to all applicants as visitors and at the same time provides a fair, transparent mechanism on how places of visitors are distributed. It abolishes the need to lie on the real reason to attend the Agora.Last but not least, the Agora application software used until 2019 was able to calculate visitor places based on such formula. | N/A |
| Shall the submission of names of members be removed from the Antennae Criteria? Current text: Antenna CriteriaArticle 3 Becoming a Contact AntennaCurrent text: Send a members list having at least five members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna. The members list has to be sent to the Comité Directeur for approval;Article 5 Becoming an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a members list having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Article 6 Remaining an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a list of current members before every Agora having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Proposal: remove the above text on the three placesRationale:The purpose of the remaining antannae criteria is to validate that the local organization is alive, does collaborate to some extent with other parts of the AEGEE network, or regulate tax payments.The criterion to submit a list of names of members does not fulfill any of the mentioned purposes, it does end in itself. “End in itself” means something that one does because one wants to and not because it will help achieve or accomplish something else (Merriam-Webster). These lists with members are not needed for the operations of AEGEE.Each antannae criterion is meant to be independent of each other, thus failing to fulfill one criterion does not imply that other criteria are also not fulfilled. Nevertheless concerning the fulfillment of the List of members criterion it was bound in the past as a requirement to fulfill other criteria. E.g. an email over BOARINF-L from 19 July 2018 contains:> The Comité Directeur and the Juridical Commission will be using the members list:> - To calculate the membership fees of locals;The email on ANNOUNCE-L from 25 August 2015 provides this explanation:> If for some reason you will not submit the members lists, the following things will happen:> 1. If your local doesn’t submit the Members' list then a *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 2. If your local doesn't submit the Membership fee with the members' list, the *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 3. The Comité Directeur and the Chair team cannot cross-check it if the members applying for the Agora are (still) members -> it's impossible to accept delegates --> the local cannot take part in the Agora -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> 4. The Financial Director cannot know how much is your fee to pay to AEGEE-Europe --> you cannot pay fees -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> Result = Your local is not fulfilling 3 criteria --> you risk to be downgraded or deleted!There were more such messages in the past.Until recently the practice was not to downgrade an antenna, if it does not fulfill a single criterion, except tax obligations. An email from 10 October 2022 on ANNOUNCE-L suggests to downgrade Antennae just because it has not sent the list of members, even if there are no concerns with the other criteria.As can be seen, the criterion to send list of members was used in the past to justify that antennae are not able to calculate the amount of fees they have to pay, or CD and Chair cannot validate if the members, approved by the local boards, are (still) members. Antannae are however capable and competent to calculate the amount of fees they have to transfer to AEGEE-Europe; CD and chair do not have the task to validate, if members of the Agora, approved by local boards, are (still) members of an antenna.A new criterion can be introduced in the future, stating that the number of members must be submitted. I have no concerns against submitting the number of members, without their names.The existing to-be-deleted antennae criterion does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | N/A |
| Response ID | 59 |
| Date last action | 2022-11-22 21:48:48 |
| Your name (and body) This information, together with your answers, will be public and possibly indexed by search engines. This is the only mandatory question in the survey. | ok |
| Do you see necessity for convoking the Extraordinary Agora 2022? The procedures to propose to the Agora to downgrade or delete antannae were not followed, therefore the Autumn Agora 2022 has not voted on downgrading/deleting antennae. The Extraordinary Agora 2022 is convoked to catch up with this voting. In case there is no extraordinary Agora, the voting will be done during Spring Agora 2023. Before convoking an extraordinary Agora in the ideal case there shall be some consultations. A form of consultations would have been a motion during the last ordinary Agora, on whether to convoke an extraordinary Agora. Rumours say that the Juridical Commission declared a motion on this topic as inadmissible. Hence the name “The Inadmissible Survey”. | No |
| Shall www.aegee.org stop collecting cookies? AEGEE is not a data-driven organization. There is probably nobody available to analyze the information collected using cookies at www.aegee.org, and then take actions. Without cookies loaded at www.aegee.org AEGEE will be more privacy oriented. | No |
| Do you think there shall have been a pre-Agora voting on the proposals, submitted to the Juridical Commission 30 days before the start of Extraordinary Agora 2022? One of the proposals changes the CIA to forbid voting on antennae degradation/deletion during an Extraordinary Agora. The reason to convoke extraordinary Agora 2022 is to vote on antennae degradation/deletion, as it was skipped during the Autumn Agora 2022. If that proposal was approved during a pre-Agora voting, the reason the convoke Extraordinary Agora 2022 would be void. | No |
| Shall the eligibility requirement for delegates and envoys, according to which delegates must have joined AEGEE half a year ago, be removed? In Working Format of the Agora, Article 5.2Current text: “In order to get elected, the delegates and envoys of Locals must be on the members list the respective Local submitted before the preceding Agora, with the exception of members who have been announced as members of the local board at least three months before the start of the Agora.”Proposed text: deletion of the above requirementRationale: Each AEGEE Antenna can decide best, based on its current situation, who to send to the Agora. When new members with time and money can attend the Agora, while older members without time or money cannot attend the Agora, the antenna should be entitled to make rational decision about who to send to the Agora. There is no need to restrict antennae who to send to the Agora, and then having lengthy discussions about granting exceptions, when the to-be-deleted requirement is not met. Moreover, the current text does not say that AEGEE-Europe may interfere or overrule decisions of an antennae who to send to the agora. Nevertheless such interferences are done in order to demonstrate who has the power.While it is reasonable to send as delegates members who know AEGEE for a longer time, this is just advice. The general assembly of an antenna can decide that a new member is a better choice as delegate than an older member, based on personal impressions. Also in this case it is not reasonable to prohibit antennae to select the person, who they think is best as delegate. In other words, the current regulation can cause problems, does not solve problems and there is no need for this restriction. This rule does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | Yes |
| Shall Antennae be downgraded or deleted only once a year? In Antennae Criteria, Article 8Current text: The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.Proposed text: «Antenna or Contact Antenna can be downgraded or deleted only during an ordinary Agora and only if on the previous ordinary Agora there was no voting on deletion or downgrading. The decision to delete or to downgrade an Antenna or Contact Antenna has to be communicated by the Comité Directeur to the Antenna or Contact Antenna 20 days before the Agora starts.If the proposal is approved, it is enacted from the moment of its approval, not the day after the Agora ends. (Cf. Article 19 Working Format of the Agora)»Rationale: The current practice is to downgrade/delete antennae twice a year. It is however sufficient to downgrade or delete antennae once a year, as the result will be the same, as when the operation is performed twice a year. This text reduces the frequency of applying the procedure. Performing twice a year the procedure takes twice as much time, before and during the Agora. With the proposed simplification less time will be spent on formalities.WF Agora Article 19 states that Agora decisions come into force the day after the Agora ends, unless stated otherwise explicitly in the decision voted upon. The current proposal states explicitly that antennae deletion/degradation can be done only during an ordinary Agora. By approving the current proposal, the reason to convoke the Extraordinary Agora 2022 will be void. Moreover the current proposal overrules the JC-decision that not having a voting on antenna degradation/deletion/downgrading justifies a necessity, an important reason to convoke an Agora. All in all, the proposal reduces formalities applied in AEGEE, without having side effects. | Yes |
| Shall the CD publish yearly the amount of natural members AEGEE has? The lack of related text in the CIA coincides with the fact, that the last time the number of members was published was in 2013 (13 000 members), | Yes |
| Shall during the Agora/EPM/SPM application process applicants be asked, whether they shall be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L? Working format of the Agora, Article 2Add new bullet: During the application procedure for Agora, EPM, Strategic Planning Meeting applicants must be offered a checkbox if they want to be subscribed to the mailing lists AEGEE-L@lists.aegee.org, ANNOUNCE-L, AEGEE-EVENT-L, AEGEENEWS-L.Rationale: https://mail.aegee.org/stats.html#subscribers shows the amount of new and deleted subscribers to the mentioned mailing list per year. Before 2019 the proposed above system was applied in practice. As can be seen from the statistics, this ensured that 500+ current members joined the major AEGEE mailing lists each year, compared to 100 now. Once subscribed, they received Open Calls, News, could discuss with other new members ideas on the development of AEGEE, but also raise concerns on a direction AEGEE has taken.Since the new members on the mailing lists are now much less, compared to the past, sending Open Calls, News or having discussions, has also much smaller impact.The possibility to subscribe by visiting https://lists.aegee.org is present, but is not as effective as integrating the subscription with the application system for the Agora/EPM.By utilizing again the previously used, existing software for the Agora application management the impact on sending Open Calls or news over ANNOUNCE-L will be increased. The mentioned mailing lists do not sell personal data. | Yes |
| Shall the number of visitors of the Agora per antenna depend only on the capacity of the organizers and the amount of members of the antenna? Working format of the Agora, Article 7Current text: The number of visitors per body depends on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local. The selection of the visitors shall be made by the Chairperson taking into account the ranking and comment provided by the board of the respective AEGEE localProposed text: The number of visitors per body depends only on the capacity of the organising AEGEE local and on the number of members of the body. The formula for calculating the number of visitors must be announced before the application process starts. Distributing the provided places for visitors among its members is up to the antennae.Rationale: Currently, even if all motivational texts are written very well, some visitors are not accepted, if there is not enough capacity. This is the same situation and result, when all applications contain no motivational text. The primary difference is, that in the latter case less time is spent for the application procedure.Currently, even if the Agora has practically unlimited capacity, applicants as visitors have to spend time on writing some motivational text. If the visitors want to visit the Agora primary because of parties, and write this in their motivation, there will likely be sanctions for stating in the motivational text the truth. So applicants write in the motivational text not the truth, what they think the reason for applying is, but rather text for which they will not be sanctioned. AEGEE has really no need to sanction members for stating what they think. Moreover, sanctioning members, for stating what they think, makes it impossible to evaluate objectively the reasons why members go to a particular Agora.Reiterating the case where an Agora has practically unlimited capacity, requiring from applicants to write motivational text is the same as stating that the time of applicants is nothing worth and therefore this time can be stolen with formalities.Currently, it is not predictable at the time an application is submitted, if the applicant will be accepted as a visitor, or will be rejected. With the proposed text this uncertainty remains, but the time for submitting an application is reduced and the selection procedure will be more transparent.Currently, the “board comment” is sometimes self-evaluation, which self-evaluation does not serve a legitimate purpose.The proposed text intentionally leaves open how to calculate or relate the number of members of non antennae, like Working Groups. It also does not say how to weight the size of the body to the visitors. One possibility is to grant each antenna constantly at least 3 places as visitors, and theremaining places are based on the number of members the antenna has. Or even the delegates can be considered in the calculation, leaving extra small antennae with at least three places (for the delegates) and no visitors. An antenna having twice as many members as another antenna could get granted twice as much visitors by the formula, or as another example - 1.3 times more visitors.The proposed text also leaves open whether the number of members per antenna during the previous Agora shall be taken into account, or the number of members based on the last payment done. The main idea of this change is to publish the selection algorithm before the application process starts.The last sentence of the proposed text suggests that Antennae shall order the visitors during the “Board Approval”. Once the formula is applied and it is clear how many visitors from an antenna are entitled to attend the Agora/EPM, the visitors are accepted in that order. This is a change to the current system, as visitors are selected by members, knowing them personally. If a selected visitor cancels, the next visitor from that antenna from the list can attend. In case of cancellation, when no more visitors from that antennae have applied before the deadline, the formula is applied againand the free place goes to another body. Obviously, if an antenna has fewer applicants than places it would take, all applicants from the antenna are accepted, and the “unused” places are in the pool of free places that are spread among the other antennae based on the formula. Likewise, if there are more places at the Agora thanapplicants, all applicants are accepted.The formula is not specified here, as it is better to evaluate how things develop over time. If the direction is considered in the future as bad, the text for the formula can be specified by a general assembly in the future.The delegates at the current Agora have not spent time on writing motivational letters, but on the next Agorae they might have to spend time on this. With the current proposal this time will be saved.This proposal does save time for the Agora/EPM application process to all applicants as visitors and at the same time provides a fair, transparent mechanism on how places of visitors are distributed. It abolishes the need to lie on the real reason to attend the Agora.Last but not least, the Agora application software used until 2019 was able to calculate visitor places based on such formula. | No |
| Shall the submission of names of members be removed from the Antennae Criteria? Current text: Antenna CriteriaArticle 3 Becoming a Contact AntennaCurrent text: Send a members list having at least five members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna. The members list has to be sent to the Comité Directeur for approval;Article 5 Becoming an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a members list having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Article 6 Remaining an AntennaCurrent text: Have submitted a list of current members before every Agora having at least ten members who are not a member of another Contact Antenna or Antenna;Proposal: remove the above text on the three placesRationale:The purpose of the remaining antannae criteria is to validate that the local organization is alive, does collaborate to some extent with other parts of the AEGEE network, or regulate tax payments.The criterion to submit a list of names of members does not fulfill any of the mentioned purposes, it does end in itself. “End in itself” means something that one does because one wants to and not because it will help achieve or accomplish something else (Merriam-Webster). These lists with members are not needed for the operations of AEGEE.Each antannae criterion is meant to be independent of each other, thus failing to fulfill one criterion does not imply that other criteria are also not fulfilled. Nevertheless concerning the fulfillment of the List of members criterion it was bound in the past as a requirement to fulfill other criteria. E.g. an email over BOARINF-L from 19 July 2018 contains:> The Comité Directeur and the Juridical Commission will be using the members list:> - To calculate the membership fees of locals;The email on ANNOUNCE-L from 25 August 2015 provides this explanation:> If for some reason you will not submit the members lists, the following things will happen:> 1. If your local doesn’t submit the Members' list then a *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 2. If your local doesn't submit the Membership fee with the members' list, the *criterion is not fulfilled!*> 3. The Comité Directeur and the Chair team cannot cross-check it if the members applying for the Agora are (still) members -> it's impossible to accept delegates --> the local cannot take part in the Agora -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> 4. The Financial Director cannot know how much is your fee to pay to AEGEE-Europe --> you cannot pay fees -> *Criterion is not fulfilled!*> Result = Your local is not fulfilling 3 criteria --> you risk to be downgraded or deleted!There were more such messages in the past.Until recently the practice was not to downgrade an antenna, if it does not fulfill a single criterion, except tax obligations. An email from 10 October 2022 on ANNOUNCE-L suggests to downgrade Antennae just because it has not sent the list of members, even if there are no concerns with the other criteria.As can be seen, the criterion to send list of members was used in the past to justify that antennae are not able to calculate the amount of fees they have to pay, or CD and Chair cannot validate if the members, approved by the local boards, are (still) members. Antannae are however capable and competent to calculate the amount of fees they have to transfer to AEGEE-Europe; CD and chair do not have the task to validate, if members of the Agora, approved by local boards, are (still) members of an antenna.A new criterion can be introduced in the future, stating that the number of members must be submitted. I have no concerns against submitting the number of members, without their names.The existing to-be-deleted antennae criterion does not make AEGEE anyhow better. | No |